Barrel markings interpretation ?

[fernando]

Hi Richard,
Labarde ? certainly Laborde, instead .
Those letterings under the barrel may (should) not be words; the upper set has too many consonants in a row... and not necessarily original to the barrel making.
You surely have a riddle there .

[fernando]

On the other hand, the word "Leconois" exists in French; apparently an old surname !

[DaleH]

http://www.shotguns.se/html/spain.html

... but although Spanish proof marks go back to 1600s, I didn’t see anything ...

[DaleH]

If we determine that ‘leconois’ is lesson, could this be an apprentice’s final build for acceptance into the guild? That may be why those other marks are there, perhaps denoting it was built/proofed under the oversight of the Master?

However, those “,” marks might indeed be commas and recall that Europsnuses them as commas between numbers - so perhaps those final marks are the bore sizes?

[Pukka Bundook]

Dear Fernando,

Of course you are right. Laborde it is. Getting things wrong is the only way I get them at the moment!

Thank you for the old French Surname. This is a good start.

Much to puzzle over on this piece, but thank you for your help my friend.

Richard.

[M ELEY]

Welcome to the Forum, DaleH. Appreciate your input and theories on this intriguing piece!

[Pukka Bundook]

Gents, there is much to ponder over on this one.

Thanks for all the thoughts.
DaleH. Welcome, glad to see you can now post!

The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century.
I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct..
The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721.

The locks are by Laborde, (Thank you Fernando!) and Stockel has him working in Paris from 1745 to 17 60.
Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist.
So what do we have?
I will attach more photos tomorrow.

Thank you all for looking!

Richard.

[fernando]

Welcome to the Forum, Dale ,
I notice that you posted a link to listings of gunmakers marks of 'modern times' (XX century) and Richard's example dates back to a couple centuries before that, respective marks being found in different sources.
I am not a French speaker but, i would not get it how 'leconois', assuming this is the exact word engraved, would give a derivation to 'lesson' (in french leçon) or that it would be relative to apprentice (in french aprentis).
On the other hand, assuming these inscriptions are indeed French, their relation with the maker of this double barrel would not be coherent if such barrel is indeed Spanish, but that is something that remains to be established, as admitted by Richard.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... The marks on the barrel are those of Luis Santos, and whether they are correct or a bit later forgeries I do not know. Many Were forged with famous Spanish barrel -maker marks applied, and these were difficult to tell apart from the real ones even in the 18th century.
I did have a short thread about the Santos stamps some time ago, and they Do appear correct....

Loking at various examples shown and described in the Catalogue of the Real Armeria, we see consistency in a little detail; the L. for Luis is followed by a minuscle s. Can you check whether the digit after the L in your barrels mark is a dot (as i see it) or a s ? Maybe this could help verify the mark authenticity.

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... The problem with this is that Luis died in 1721, so if his work, they are Extremely early for a set of double barrels. I Think Keith Neal had seen some from 1723 or so, but these would have to be 1721...

Good reasoning, Richard. Resulting in that your gun, having a French lock, would be consistent with having late XVIII century barrels of French origin, the famous Spanish master marks being a "marketing" operation.

Quoting two paragraphs in this link:
http://www.thefield.co.uk/shooting/h...shooting-26590.

"While the flintlock and trigger-to-bang time continually improved, the next major innovation was the addition of a second barrel. The earliest examples of guns with barrels held together by soldering rather than the stock were French side-by-sides of the 1730s."

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...Then, we have later stocking up apparently in the UK, in the early 19th century, and have an Earl's coronet on the wrist...

And why do think of this as a fact, Richard; the coronet style, or the stock shape ?


.

[Pukka Bundook]

Fernando my friend, You are a very useful chap!
Thank you for this reply.
On these stampings, the L for Luis is followed by a miniscule Dot, so apparently Not the real deal. This has been driving me a little nuts, so I am very pleased you have shared this with me. :-)

The barrels are still early but may well have been assembled into a gun by Laborde. They are apparently brazed together, with a top rib, and are beautiful work. (Even if not Santos!)
Your quote from "The Field" would validate the time-span as well.

If Laborde work, I think it is fairly early work of this maker, as the manner of attaching the barrels to the breech is not a standard procedure. Please see pictures.
This is not the usual hooked breech we normally see, the barrels and false breech must be lifted from the stock as a unit.

My pictures of the stock are too large, so will reduce them and post later.

The stock is newer, and has an "English" look about it. V high quality walnut. It seems the original Laborde furniture was fitted to this stock.

I value your thoughts on this !

Richard.