Interesting "wallhanger"

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, I've seen a piece of cardboard used to support keris dress. Obviously not a keris.

Why?

If I can consider something that is of very inferior workmanship a keris, why can I not consider a piece of cardboard, or a piece of wood a keris if it looks like a keris and fulfills the function of a keris?

The reason is that cardboard and wood cannot be tosan aji :- honoured iron. Iron is the essential component. Doesn't really matter how rough the work is, provided it vaguely resembles what it is intended to be, provided it is made of iron, it qualifies as tosan aji. The form represents an idea, just as two rough sticks crossed represent an idea to a Christian, and the honour of the idea comes from man.

At the present time in Bali, one of current working pande keris is recognised as the only true pande keris because he knows the correct mantras and observances for the making of a sacred keris. Such a keris from his hands will cost much more than a piece of high art from any of the other makers. But do not expect high art from this man's hands. The keris that he produces are not of any value artistically, but they are of high value talismanically.

When we raise the question of things made in traditional fashion, we need to ask just exactly what that "traditional fashion" is.

Does "traditional fashion" need to incorporate the washing of iron to make it usable? Does it need to incorporate different metals to create contrast in a blade?

The palace guards of the Mangkunegaraan were armed with tombak and pedang that were made from homogenous steel. This was used to replace the old multi-folded material as soon as it became available.

Empu Jayasukadgo of the Karaton Susuhunan made a number of keris and other weapons from modern, homogenous steel. Other pande keris working in Jawa also used modern steel for weapons as soon as it became available.
Why?
It was superior material. They still made pamor blades when required, but these were made primarily for their talismanic properties, not to use as weapons.

Craftsmen have always used the most modern technology available to produce their craft. It is not the way that something is made that makes it a traditional artefact, it is the way that the people who own the culture that owns that artefact regards it that validates its authenticity.

Once again using Christianity as an example.
Does a cross need to be made in a particular fashion in order to make it a legitimate symbol of the Christian faith?
I rather think not. It is the way in which a Christian regards that cross that gives it its legitimacy.

It is no different with the keris.

I have no problem at all in accepting that many collectors will not accept as collectable items, keris such as are under discussion in this thread, however, it is simply not possible to deny that those non-collectable items are keris.

[David R]

Thank you A. G. Maisey for the above. A very interesting insight to Keris, that is not just from the collectors point of view but from it's living tradition.

[David]

Thanks you for your perspective Alan, and i am not in complete disagreement. My problem with this blade is not that it is poorly constructed. As i am sure you know i have many keris in my collection which are far from masterpieces. I think you are under a misimpression that quality (or lack thereof) is the issue here for me. Nothing could be further from my mind. And i am more than willing to accept that blades made by quality standards that are even below my own for collectibility can still be seen as legitimate keris. But i believe we all draw our own lines and for me, the fact that the creator of this blade not only chose homogenous steel, but then created ridged lines to simulate a fake pamor pattern disqualifies it from my own personal standard. Your mileage may vary and we may simply have to agree to disagree at this point.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, there is no disagreement at all between us. For a disagreement to exist there must be a situation where one person is attempting to change the opinion of another.

I am not attempting to change your opinion, nor anybody else's opinion for that matter.

In fact, I am not even putting forward my own opinion, which is not a part of this discussion, and which I choose to reserve.

What I have done is to try to provide some understanding of the way things are, on the ground, in Jawa.

I'm simply relaying information.

We can all choose to do whatever we will with that information:- accept, reject, or disbelieve.

Whatever anybody does with it is of no consequence to me.

In respect of the material from which Treeslicer's first keris has been made, actually, I'm not real sure that this has been made from unwashed steel. In order to carve ferric material, especially if the carving is done by hand, it needs to be soft. Modern mild steel still contains some carbon, and even after it has been annealed it can still be a bit difficult to carve using simple hand tools. The way around this difficulty is to throw a couple of welds into the material --- you can probably stop the welding when the little stars stop being thrown off at weld heat.

Treeslicer could tell better with it in his hand if it has been welded, but looking closely at the pics it seems to me that I can see a couple of weld joints; maybe what I can see is just sloppy work, even sloppier than the rest of the work, it is difficult to be sure from the pics.

[satsujinken]

guys, this is what we called "keris koden"

koden = refers to kodi, a bundle of 20 items

in my opinion, keris koden is not true keris, it's just a keris-shaped objects, though it follows the most basic pakem of keris. That it why it was sold as tourist curio and the seller ordered a whole bunch in a bundle - hence the name of keris koden.

this type of keris is commonly bought to be used as necessary accessories in Traditional Javanese wedding dress for the groom. A friend once gave a similar specimen to me, and I jokingly named it Kanjeng Kyai Rencekan (rencekan means junk)

That is exactly why it lacked details and "feels" to it

regards
Donny