should I or shouldn't I change and repair

David · 16th February 2018, 08:55 AM

hmmm...that is indeed a dilemma Green. My first inclination would be to say that if you are concerned about maintaining the best value on this keris for possible future sale you may want to leave the ensemble as is. Frankly it does not appear to be all that extraordinary an example of this keris form so i think the "historical" aspect of this keris (i.e. the Frey association) is perhaps an important aspect of it's commercial value. "Correcting" the ensemble might give you a more culturally acceptable match, but it would only yield a rather ordinary example at best. I might consider repairing the nose if i thought the repair could be done seamlessly. Otherwise i would leave it alone if it were mine.

kai · 16th February 2018, 09:52 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

Frankly it does not appear to be all that extraordinary an example of this keris form

The tajong hilt certainly sems to be a nice one...

BTW, how well does the blade fit the scabbard, Nik?

If the fit is reasonable, I'd be inclined to find a suitable hilt for the keris and go for a "new" quality blade and scabbard for the tajong hilt...

Regards,
Kai

Paul de Souza · 16th February 2018, 12:30 PM

I think if you have means to repair it in traditional manner or at least keep to the spirit of the piece..should. For all u know...the Tajong hilt was put in by original seller to "enhance" it and sell to Frey. Or Frey may have put on a hilt he acquired on the keris. Wonder if Frey would have fixed it if he had the means.

Fittings in keris culture get changed regularly, albeit in the "correct" regional form. They get damaged or decay or upgraded. Somehow not right not to do anything if you have the means too.

For me..I get "gerum" if I have a piece with items that dun match. Will try to match but keep to form/region. But then that is my personal preference and I dun own a celebrity piece.

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2018, 07:36 PM

Is the wrongko original to the blade, or are we looking at a collection of mated pieces that could have been put together by anybody?

If all mated, try to get a better fit of blade to wrongko, replace hilt with a more correct one, mount and display hilt separately.

If wrongko original to blade, replace hilt with a more correct one, mount and display hilt separately.

Alternatively, sell as is with provenance, unless you feel some particular connection with the keris itself, that is, the blade.

Personally, I'd move it on as quickly as I could.

David · 17th February 2018, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

The tajong hilt certainly sems to be a nice one...

Well Kai, you certain must have better eyes than i do or one really terrific high resolution screen because i really can't determine the quality of the dress from my view. But i was really commenting on the nature of the blade itself.

kai · 17th February 2018, 05:54 PM

Hello David,

Actually, I was going from memory which can be a bit dangerous...

Here some auction pics for future reference.

Regards,
Kai

David · 17th February 2018, 06:53 PM

Thanks Kai. I don't think i ever viewed the auction page, so all i had to go by was the images posted here by Green. The hilt is a bit nicer than i was able to see in Green's photos. A bit more damage than just the nick on the nose though. That's a nasty crack at the base. The blade is also better than i could see as well, though well worn and in need of a cleaning i would think.

"IMVHO Edward Frey was one of the (many) early keris enthusiasts and took some effort to do a literature survey of available publications, visited some notable museum collections and, after 2 years (and over 30 years of collecting), published a small book. While it would not be fair to judge a publication which is over 30 years old by current knowledge, I do not see any notable ethnographic discoveries disclosed - it's more of a review of already known facts thought to be well established at the time of writing. Thus, I don't see much of a legacy which could stipulate to keep this keris as found."

If it were mine i would still be inclined to leave it in this configuration. Green was not the only collector who seemed excited to receive pieces from the Frey collection. I have been on many other keris sites and pages where other keris collectors were talking excitedly about that auction and vying for pieces. I certainly would not disagree with your over all assessment of the importance, or lack thereof, of Frey regarding any groundbreaking discoveries or revelations on keris culture, but many, if not most avid collectors have his book and it served as an important part of their beginning studies. Regardless of the fact that his writings are less than groundbreaking (and sometimes outright wrong) i still feel that many people still hold him in some form of regard and enjoy owning a keris that had once been his. How that translates to added value is not really clear. I know that the one Frey keris that i own i appreciate first and foremost because it is indeed a beautiful and unique Bali keris. However, i do still enjoy the fact that it graces the cover of an old edition of Arts of Asia and was once apparently one of Frey's favorites.

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2018, 08:19 PM

The comments I made in post #7 were ill considered.

I based those comments on Green's photos, and the opinion I formed from those photos was that I would not give this keris house-room, I'd get rid of it as quickly as possible.

I was wrong.
This is a nice keris.

There was a time when I refused to make a comment or give an opinion unless the photos provided for comment were adequate to allow me to form a supportable opinion. My standards have slipped, it seems I have made comments in the recent past where my opinion was based upon less than adequate photos.

Thank you for the decent images Kai, and the lesson.

I retract my previous opinion, and reserve my present opinion. I would like to see the fit of the blade to the wrongko before commenting again.

kai · 17th February 2018, 09:31 PM

Hello Alan,

These are the only pics allowing a bit of info on the fit - I'd love to hear what Nik believes from personally handling this keris though?

Regards,
Kai

16th February 2018, 07:36 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Is the wrongko original to the blade, or are we looking at a collection of mated pieces that could have been put together by anybody? If all mated, try to get a better fit of blade to wrongko, replace hilt with a more correct one, mount and display hilt separately. If wrongko original to blade, replace hilt with a more correct one, mount and display hilt separately. Alternatively, sell as is with provenance, unless you feel some particular connection with the keris itself, that is, the blade. Personally, I'd move it on as quickly as I could. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 17th February 2018 at 05:34 AM. Reason: repetition

17th February 2018, 05:54 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello David, Actually, I was going from memory which can be a bit dangerous... Here some auction pics for future reference. Regards, Kai Attached Images

17th February 2018, 09:31 PM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Alan, These are the only pics allowing a bit of info on the fit - I'd love to hear what Nik believes from personally handling this keris though? Regards, Kai Attached Images

16th February 2018, 08:55 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	hmmm...that is indeed a dilemma Green. My first inclination would be to say that if you are concerned about maintaining the best value on this keris for possible future sale you may want to leave the ensemble as is. Frankly it does not appear to be all that extraordinary an example of this keris form so i think the "historical" aspect of this keris (i.e. the Frey association) is perhaps an important aspect of it's commercial value. "Correcting" the ensemble might give you a more culturally acceptable match, but it would only yield a rather ordinary example at best. I might consider repairing the nose if i thought the repair could be done seamlessly. Otherwise i would leave it alone if it were mine.

16th February 2018, 12:30 PM	#3
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 66	I think if you have means to repair it in traditional manner or at least keep to the spirit of the piece..should. For all u know...the Tajong hilt was put in by original seller to "enhance" it and sell to Frey. Or Frey may have put on a hilt he acquired on the keris. Wonder if Frey would have fixed it if he had the means. Fittings in keris culture get changed regularly, albeit in the "correct" regional form. They get damaged or decay or upgraded. Somehow not right not to do anything if you have the means too. For me..I get "gerum" if I have a piece with items that dun match. Will try to match but keep to form/region. But then that is my personal preference and I dun own a celebrity piece.

17th February 2018, 06:53 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks Kai. I don't think i ever viewed the auction page, so all i had to go by was the images posted here by Green. The hilt is a bit nicer than i was able to see in Green's photos. A bit more damage than just the nick on the nose though. That's a nasty crack at the base. The blade is also better than i could see as well, though well worn and in need of a cleaning i would think. "IMVHO Edward Frey was one of the (many) early keris enthusiasts and took some effort to do a literature survey of available publications, visited some notable museum collections and, after 2 years (and over 30 years of collecting), published a small book. While it would not be fair to judge a publication which is over 30 years old by current knowledge, I do not see any notable ethnographic discoveries disclosed - it's more of a review of already known facts thought to be well established at the time of writing. Thus, I don't see much of a legacy which could stipulate to keep this keris as found." If it were mine i would still be inclined to leave it in this configuration. Green was not the only collector who seemed excited to receive pieces from the Frey collection. I have been on many other keris sites and pages where other keris collectors were talking excitedly about that auction and vying for pieces. I certainly would not disagree with your over all assessment of the importance, or lack thereof, of Frey regarding any groundbreaking discoveries or revelations on keris culture, but many, if not most avid collectors have his book and it served as an important part of their beginning studies. Regardless of the fact that his writings are less than groundbreaking (and sometimes outright wrong) i still feel that many people still hold him in some form of regard and enjoy owning a keris that had once been his. How that translates to added value is not really clear. I know that the one Frey keris that i own i appreciate first and foremost because it is indeed a beautiful and unique Bali keris. However, i do still enjoy the fact that it graces the cover of an old edition of Arts of Asia and was once apparently one of Frey's favorites. Last edited by David; 17th February 2018 at 10:37 PM.

17th February 2018, 08:19 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The comments I made in post #7 were ill considered. I based those comments on Green's photos, and the opinion I formed from those photos was that I would not give this keris house-room, I'd get rid of it as quickly as possible. I was wrong. This is a nice keris. There was a time when I refused to make a comment or give an opinion unless the photos provided for comment were adequate to allow me to form a supportable opinion. My standards have slipped, it seems I have made comments in the recent past where my opinion was based upon less than adequate photos. Thank you for the decent images Kai, and the lesson. I retract my previous opinion, and reserve my present opinion. I would like to see the fit of the blade to the wrongko before commenting again.