Interesting Toradar Barrel

thomas hauschild · 9th February 2018, 06:08 PM

I‘m not realy sure if this is a damascus steel made out of layers. The “round“ structure which looks like a wheel or a half cut orange will be possible to make as a round bar, not impossible. But making opposite cuts and fold it out will not result such a clear, undeformed pattern with one round near the other. Cutting such a bar into slices and weld let me say 30 pieces side by side on a flat different steel is possible but the weld will not so good that you ca make a long enough bar to bend it round to make a barrel. And make every hammerblow and keep the structure round within the steel and make every welding and forming and keep the round pattern. I do not think so

The strukture with the angles shows exakt „layers“ meeting each other perfectly „around the sharp angle“ . If you make a twisted bar, the pattern will be different ( turkish twist) if you will make a bar with a 45° angle, that will be possible but it will be impossible to make a second bar and weld it so perfectly together that you will meet the opposite layer everytime perfectly, like it looks on the pictures. You can push a cold blade through a „high tower“ of hot damascus steel and get that angle afterwards but there will be a „feather-like“ structure after this. ( google for feather damascus ) It will be possible to weld 2 pieces of damascus steel together under an angle to make a chevron. There are some composite blades with chevrons in some kris. But that pieces are very small and does not have the length that you will need to make a barrel like this with perfectly matching layers. To make a long enough bar to wrap it around a core likes this, will need several thousands layers that will need to match the oposite bar

So from the pictures I‘m afraid that this is a just etched structure and there will be a risk to polish and clean them away.

Edit: reading the following comments it is very interesting that it is not just etched. Nice to be wrong. Maximum respect to the maker of the past time. I think the only way to make it is to cut the pieces of the first bar into pieces an weld that pieces on a flat steel like little mosaic stones on a flat ground

Just my opinion

Best Thomas

stenoyab · 9th February 2018, 08:44 PM

On the barrel of a match lock I posted a while back you can see how they etched patterns, when I removed it from the stock you can see the contrast of the old aged etch and the near mint etch (once I wiped it down).

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21076

kai · 10th February 2018, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stenoyab

On the barrel of a match lock I posted a while back you can see how they etched patterns, when I removed it from the stock you can see the contrast of the old aged etch and the near mint etch (once I wiped it down).

Yes, your's does look etched, indeed.

kai · 10th February 2018, 01:25 AM

Hello Thomas,

Quote:

from the pictures I‘m afraid that this is a just etched structure and there will be a risk to polish and clean them away.

I believe I do see some cold shuts on the pics and believe this really is a forged pattern!

I also don't think that Leo Figiel would have mistaken a fake/etched pattern for the real thing...

Quote:

The “round“ structure which looks like a wheel or a half cut orange will be possible to make as a round bar, not impossible. But making opposite cuts and fold it out will not result such a clear, undeformed pattern with one round near the other. Cutting such a bar into slices and weld let me say 30 pieces side by side on a flat different steel is possible but the weld will not so good that you ca make a long enough bar to bend it round to make a barrel.

The approach won't work as pictured - I think there is a step missing/implicated: First, the rod will need an additional layer of iron with the final cross-section being square (without distorting the circular core). Then you need to completely cut through the circular core but keep a thin outer layer for flattening out the zig-zag folds into a band. In the final configuration on the barrel, there also seems to be a slightly thicker interspersing "line" for fusing the spirally arranged pattern-welded band.

Regards,
Kai

archer · 10th February 2018, 02:50 AM

Thank you all for your input I will gladly respond to all your comments soon. Yesterday after a heavier cleaning (not fully cleaned yet) I wanted to prove or remove My doubts about a possible very thin lamination at the barrel lug It is now showing the slice pattern well. First I used sanding to clean and remove black spots and rust with WD 40 and commercial fiber pads manually. I did resort to a Dremel tool with identical pads on the fluted muzzle with the best effect so far for displaying the design. I'm certain now it is not an etched on effect. I etched the barrels front half after more aggressive scrubbing with pads. Scoping the bore shows the chamber restrictor showing perhaps an area where weld may be incomplete. My scanner and Pc are not on good terms. Dr. Figiel mentions different slice depths for the spiral and orange slice portions he suggests they were cut nearly thru in two directions and layed out flat side by side for forging.,

archer · 10th February 2018, 03:43 AM

Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust.
Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique
he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up
a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself.

Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine
bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing.
It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project.

Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern.
Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 06:33 AM

You are doing a very nice job on it Steve.

Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist.
Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made!

Richard.

archer · 10th February 2018, 07:09 AM

Hi Richard,
I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

Pukka Bundook · 10th February 2018, 02:15 PM

Thanks for that, Steve.

I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when!

The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load.

The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire.
Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy.
I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged;
If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along.

Best regards,
Richard.

Roland_M · 14th February 2018, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out.

This barrel was 100% etched in the past. It is made from pattern welded steel and the only purpose of the pattern is to be beautiful. I have different etchants receipies from the past, but they all sound very toxic, with quicksilver and so on. If you are interested, I have a pdf about pattern welded Barrel restoration for you. The fine thing is, the guide is from early 19th ct. and describes the old way to stain a barrel.

Roland

9th February 2018, 06:08 PM	#1
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 141	I‘m not realy sure if this is a damascus steel made out of layers. The “round“ structure which looks like a wheel or a half cut orange will be possible to make as a round bar, not impossible. But making opposite cuts and fold it out will not result such a clear, undeformed pattern with one round near the other. Cutting such a bar into slices and weld let me say 30 pieces side by side on a flat different steel is possible but the weld will not so good that you ca make a long enough bar to bend it round to make a barrel. And make every hammerblow and keep the structure round within the steel and make every welding and forming and keep the round pattern. I do not think so The strukture with the angles shows exakt „layers“ meeting each other perfectly „around the sharp angle“ . If you make a twisted bar, the pattern will be different ( turkish twist) if you will make a bar with a 45° angle, that will be possible but it will be impossible to make a second bar and weld it so perfectly together that you will meet the opposite layer everytime perfectly, like it looks on the pictures. You can push a cold blade through a „high tower“ of hot damascus steel and get that angle afterwards but there will be a „feather-like“ structure after this. ( google for feather damascus ) It will be possible to weld 2 pieces of damascus steel together under an angle to make a chevron. There are some composite blades with chevrons in some kris. But that pieces are very small and does not have the length that you will need to make a barrel like this with perfectly matching layers. To make a long enough bar to wrap it around a core likes this, will need several thousands layers that will need to match the oposite bar So from the pictures I‘m afraid that this is a just etched structure and there will be a risk to polish and clean them away. Edit: reading the following comments it is very interesting that it is not just etched. Nice to be wrong. Maximum respect to the maker of the past time. I think the only way to make it is to cut the pieces of the first bar into pieces an weld that pieces on a flat steel like little mosaic stones on a flat ground Just my opinion Best Thomas Last edited by thomas hauschild; 10th February 2018 at 06:07 AM.

10th February 2018, 02:50 AM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Better Info Thank you all for your input I will gladly respond to all your comments soon. Yesterday after a heavier cleaning (not fully cleaned yet) I wanted to prove or remove My doubts about a possible very thin lamination at the barrel lug It is now showing the slice pattern well. First I used sanding to clean and remove black spots and rust with WD 40 and commercial fiber pads manually. I did resort to a Dremel tool with identical pads on the fluted muzzle with the best effect so far for displaying the design. I'm certain now it is not an etched on effect. I etched the barrels front half after more aggressive scrubbing with pads. Scoping the bore shows the chamber restrictor showing perhaps an area where weld may be incomplete. My scanner and Pc are not on good terms. Dr. Figiel mentions different slice depths for the spiral and orange slice portions he suggests they were cut nearly thru in two directions and layed out flat side by side for forging., Attached Images

10th February 2018, 03:43 AM	#6
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	responses Hi Roland I'll have to give the Chalk trick a try I'm always wrist deep in rust. Thomas if only I could copy those portions dealing with this technique he implies that the multi faggot designs and others were constructed separately ground or filed square and added to other billets to make up a pattern going one way the next one in the opposite direction and joined with others to perhaps plain billets . The chevron swords come to mind. I think that time and high skill were certainly needed. I don't know how common these designs are and I'm hoping to get a feel for that. I'm fairly certain this type of construction unlike wootz could be treated a bit more harshly and continue to reveal itself. Stenyab, your rifle is a great example of the use it had and the pristine bright finish it still carries hidden beneath its stock. When I first got this barrel I had lofty hopes of mocking it up in a new stock and hardware now I await a nearly complete unit with some broken stock missing. It was cheap and i find that shipping from UK to Alaska will add three times to the cost. hopefully it may a shooter?? Definitely a project. Kai at different times cleaning and etching I too see a some of the pattern as it was laid up Just now or suns smack on the horizon bad for filming. the zig-zag pattern must have been made up of several segments and is harder to read. Now that I feel more confident of the pattern depths I'm tempted to gently try a rotating buffing wheel very carefully I can already see a clearer pattern where i cleaned the forward barrel portion more aggressively removing more dark spots and making for a clearer pattern. Kia your right there were other steps omitted,but, the nearly cut thru slices were left together. Dr. Figiel also mentions possible molten cast iron baths used in the process. Steve Last edited by archer; 10th February 2018 at 06:51 AM.

10th February 2018, 07:09 AM	#8
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Etchant Hi Richard, I use Ferric Chloride from EBay it comes in various forms see photos. I use a spray Acetone used to remove foam insulation Cleans thoroughly and dries fast. I mix the crystals with distilled water. A weaker mixture is normally preferred. This time it was stronger and applied several times. Downside of the repeated strong applications is gets too dark requiring light sanding under running water or a mild abrasive to change the tone. Important prep and degrease til there is no pooling acid mixture should cover and stay wet. Strip off with an Ammonia at this point you can use acetone and continue etch or dry rinse with water or baking soda and water and dry. Note after light water and1000 grit both the various metals and spirals are evident. I don't think the barrel was ever etched in a past life so hopefully the contrast will come out. Attached Images Last edited by archer; 10th February 2018 at 04:09 PM.

9th February 2018, 08:44 PM	#2
stenoyab Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43	On the barrel of a match lock I posted a while back you can see how they etched patterns, when I removed it from the stock you can see the contrast of the old aged etch and the near mint etch (once I wiped it down). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21076

10th February 2018, 06:33 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	You are doing a very nice job on it Steve. Can I ask what you use to etch it? I have a couple to do, but mine appear to be just a simple twist. Staggeringly beautiful barrel you have! I Shake my head when I think how they were made! Richard.

10th February 2018, 02:15 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Thanks for that, Steve. I do have some ferric chloride somewhere. will give it a bash as and when! The toradar I have for shooting has no chamber per se. it has a slightly smaller diameter to the bore for the last inch maybe, so is easy to load. The others have a powder chamber, and without the narrower "neck" still hold about 265 grains of powder. (!)If the narrow neck area was Also filled with powder, it would be a serious amount to fire. Maybe this is why they could out-range the British musket of the time?...both for distance and accuracy. I have never come across any details of How these guns were charged; If you find any information, I would be appreciative if you would pass it along. Best regards, Richard.