Which deity does this Bali handle represent?

Jean · 8th February 2018, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Any idea about the semi-precious cabochon stones involved in the selut?

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.
Regards

David · 8th February 2018, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.
Regards

Yes Jean, could also be obsidian. While i have not seen similar stones used on older seluts i wonder why you suggest they are not "suitable".

Battara · 9th February 2018, 01:35 AM

If I remember right, it is the color of the stones that has talismanic and/or spiritual significance in Balinese pieces. Thus you see a lot of blue sapphires, red rubies, or black stones, or at least glass replacements.

A. G. Maisey · 9th February 2018, 03:40 AM

Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala, related to SOUTH:-

South -- Kelod -- To the Sea -- Brahma -- Saraswati -- Red -- Impurity, strife, coarseness, lack of self control -- Liver -- Pigs & rubbish

In the case of BLACK, the relationship in the Mandala is to the NORTH and the deity concerned is WISNU. In this case of WISNU, the colour can also be GREEN.

The most popular colour combination in traditionally mounted hilts is WHITE - BLACK - RED, which is representative of the Balinese Trinity:- Iswara (or Siwa*) - Wisnu - Brahma.
* in very simplistic terms "Iswara" can be understood as being the same as Siwa. This is an incorrect but easy to relate to understanding. Iswara can mean different things in different contexts and in different strands of Hindu belief. A slightly more complex way of thinking of Iswara is that Iswara is the universal oneness that connects all. In the Mandala Siwa embraces mixed colours, but because the mixing of colours creates WHITE, Siwa can also be understood in terms of WHITE.

If the colour used in something is intended to relate to only one deity, it could be expected that the colour will tie to the one deity in terms of Mandala related symbolism, but if the colour relationship is to more than one deity, or more than one Mandala related concept then the colours will indicate what that relationship is likely to be.

So, yes, in Balinese belief colour is symbolic, but it requires a great deal of understanding to be able to interpret the many possible relationships. It is really a job for a specialist, it is probably sufficient for us if we have a broad understanding of the relationships and that they can and often do, exist.

In respect of probable age of this hilt, I am inclined to place the selut in the span of 1960 - 1980. I believe the hilt probably dates from the same period. This is opinion only, based upon what I know of style related to period in Balinese craft-works.

Battara · 11th February 2018, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala

Thank you so much Alan for elaborating on this: I have always wondered and now your explanation fills in a lot of holes for us (and especially me

).

A. G. Maisey · 11th February 2018, 08:22 AM

My explanation of Balinese symbolism is very superficial, and about all I've done is to confirm that, yeah, symbolism does exist. Something that we already know. the info that I put up comes from a lady named Murni, who was the informant for Jonathon Copeland's "Secrets of Bali".

I would guess that if you google "Bali + mandala + Murni" you will get a whole lot more.

David · 11th February 2018, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

the info that I put up comes from a lady named Murni, who was the informant for Jonathon Copeland's "Secrets of Bali".

Alan, do you recommend this book? I have not read it yet.

kai · 10th February 2018, 02:33 AM

Hello Jean,

Quote:

The cabochon stones may be from black obsidian (volcano glass) which is used in Indonesia AFAIK but they are not suitable for a traditional Balinese selut indeed.

Don't these look like low-quality black sapphires? (Basically with irregular layers of needles inside rather than clear or star sapphires?)

Regards,
Kai

Paul B. · 10th February 2018, 01:44 PM

Obsidian seems not the case...shiny and pitchblack but not semi-translucent like the depicted uwer stones.
This is another probably similar cabochon stone and low quality sapphire is a good guess Kai. Optional: smokey quartz but tends to be more brownish.

A. G. Maisey · 10th February 2018, 08:46 PM

These stones, both black and red, were very popular in Balinese silver jewellery from the early 1970's through to the mid-1980's. That is the time span I can vouch for, but they might have been used before the 1970's, have not seen the black stones like these in verifiable pre-WWII work. I think these stones are both still used, but not nearly as often as they used to be. During the 1970' -1980's the black stones were very prevalent. They used to call them black sapphires in Bali, something I've always found difficult to accept. Sapphire is corundum, if it is brilliant cut crystal, its a sapphire, if it is a dull black cab it is stuff that missed out on getting ground up and made into W&D paper. If it is a cab with a star, well, that's different. They were cheap stones.

David · 10th February 2018, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

These stones, both black and red, were very popular in Balinese silver jewellery from the early 1970's through to the mid-1980's. That is the time span I can vouch for, but they might have been used before the 1970's, have not seen the black stones like these in verifiable pre-WWII work. I think these stones are both still used, but not nearly as often as they used to be. During the 1970' -1980's the black stones were very prevalent. They used to call them black sapphires in Bali, something I've always found difficult to accept. Sapphire is corundum, if it is brilliant cut crystal, its a sapphire, if it is a dull black cab it is stuff that missed out on getting ground up and made into W&D paper. If it is a cab with a star, well, that's different. They were cheap stones.

Yes, real black star sapphire is actually a pretty pricey stone. That is why i suggested this might be black diopside, which has a similar look.
What you say here Alan confirms my own suspicions of the age of this hilt, or at least the selut. But the ivory still looks dyed to me and i suspect the entire hilt may well be from about the same period just as you do.
I don't particularly mean this as a criticism. It is still an attractive hilt. However, if indeed it is from this late 20th century period it is less likely to have had as much intention placed on an actual traditional figure than, say, if it where a 19th century piece.

10th February 2018, 01:44 PM	#9
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Obsidian seems not the case...shiny and pitchblack but not semi-translucent like the depicted uwer stones. This is another probably similar cabochon stone and low quality sapphire is a good guess Kai. Optional: smokey quartz but tends to be more brownish. Attached Images

9th February 2018, 01:35 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	If I remember right, it is the color of the stones that has talismanic and/or spiritual significance in Balinese pieces. Thus you see a lot of blue sapphires, red rubies, or black stones, or at least glass replacements.

9th February 2018, 03:40 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Colour symbolism in Bali is related to the Balinese Mandala, as an example this is the symbolism in the Mandala, related to SOUTH:- South -- Kelod -- To the Sea -- Brahma -- Saraswati -- Red -- Impurity, strife, coarseness, lack of self control -- Liver -- Pigs & rubbish In the case of BLACK, the relationship in the Mandala is to the NORTH and the deity concerned is WISNU. In this case of WISNU, the colour can also be GREEN. The most popular colour combination in traditionally mounted hilts is WHITE - BLACK - RED, which is representative of the Balinese Trinity:- Iswara (or Siwa) - Wisnu - Brahma. in very simplistic terms "Iswara" can be understood as being the same as Siwa. This is an incorrect but easy to relate to understanding. Iswara can mean different things in different contexts and in different strands of Hindu belief. A slightly more complex way of thinking of Iswara is that Iswara is the universal oneness that connects all. In the Mandala Siwa embraces mixed colours, but because the mixing of colours creates WHITE, Siwa can also be understood in terms of WHITE. If the colour used in something is intended to relate to only one deity, it could be expected that the colour will tie to the one deity in terms of Mandala related symbolism, but if the colour relationship is to more than one deity, or more than one Mandala related concept then the colours will indicate what that relationship is likely to be. So, yes, in Balinese belief colour is symbolic, but it requires a great deal of understanding to be able to interpret the many possible relationships. It is really a job for a specialist, it is probably sufficient for us if we have a broad understanding of the relationships and that they can and often do, exist. In respect of probable age of this hilt, I am inclined to place the selut in the span of 1960 - 1980. I believe the hilt probably dates from the same period. This is opinion only, based upon what I know of style related to period in Balinese craft-works.

11th February 2018, 08:22 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	My explanation of Balinese symbolism is very superficial, and about all I've done is to confirm that, yeah, symbolism does exist. Something that we already know. the info that I put up comes from a lady named Murni, who was the informant for Jonathon Copeland's "Secrets of Bali". I would guess that if you google "Bali + mandala + Murni" you will get a whole lot more.

10th February 2018, 08:46 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	These stones, both black and red, were very popular in Balinese silver jewellery from the early 1970's through to the mid-1980's. That is the time span I can vouch for, but they might have been used before the 1970's, have not seen the black stones like these in verifiable pre-WWII work. I think these stones are both still used, but not nearly as often as they used to be. During the 1970' -1980's the black stones were very prevalent. They used to call them black sapphires in Bali, something I've always found difficult to accept. Sapphire is corundum, if it is brilliant cut crystal, its a sapphire, if it is a dull black cab it is stuff that missed out on getting ground up and made into W&D paper. If it is a cab with a star, well, that's different. They were cheap stones.