Exceptionaly rare knife from Formosa/Taiwan

Tim Simmons · 25th March 2006, 03:20 PM

Magnificent!! A pleasure to see.

yuanzhumin · 27th March 2006, 04:26 PM

Thank you Tim. For you and the others that are interested I posted hereafter the pictures of the two most beautiful of these kind of ceremonial or ritual knives that I have ever seen.
The first one is very long with 56 cm and is one of the masterpiece of the Shunye Museum of Aboriginal art, in Taipei, and the second one, measuring 42 cm, is in the collections of the Sankokan Museum of the Tenri University, in Japan.

Tim Simmons · 27th March 2006, 04:33 PM

Superb artistry and casting on the second example. How wonderful to have one, even if not quite as fine as these two.

Rick · 27th March 2006, 04:54 PM

These are lovely examples !
Please keep showing us Taiwanese ethnograpich weapons Yuanzhumin , they are seldom seen on the forum .

Nonoy Tan · 14th March 2010, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Taiwan does not have the tin needed to make bronze and none of the aborigine tribes possessed bronze making technology, so some scholars believe the bronze knives originated in the Dongshan civilization of Vietnam because of their shape and material.

Hi Yuanzhumin,

Do scholars theorize that the bronze knives were exported to Formosa?

Did the indigenous peoples of Formosa attempt to make similar knives using iron?

Sajen · 14th March 2010, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Magnificent!! A pleasure to see.

Agree with Tim! And congrats to this rare find.

KuKulzA28 · 14th March 2010, 06:52 AM

You're an expert and I a novice. You're a collector and historian, and I use machetes in the woods. I've heard of and seen pictures of these bronze knives... but I know little to nothing about them - let alone having one. You're very fortunate to have one... Hold onto it and keep good care of it, please!!!

If only the looted bronze knives were returned to Taiwan, or even to the Paiwanese people...

It's always good to see stuff from the home(is)land pop up on this forum.

migueldiaz · 14th March 2010, 11:39 AM

thanks for sharing! would there be mainland china blades that are similar in shape? thanks in advance

fearn · 14th March 2010, 03:55 PM

I suspect the tradition of ceremonial bronze knives was widespread, because they showed up in Korea as well. However, the Korean knives don't look at all like these, and as far as I can tell, their design is unique to Taiwan.

How old are they?

Absolutely wonderful to see them.

F

Emanuel · 14th March 2010, 05:12 PM

Very beautiful artifacts!

Somehow "phurpa" immediately came to mind when I saw these.

Not necessarily implying a connection, but it is very interesting to yet again find parallel and separate development of similar forms and treatments.

yuanzhumin · 19th March 2010, 03:30 PM

Thanks for your interest and your nice comments. This kind of knives are seldomly seen outside museums, even in Taiwan. Outside the island, only few of them have been collected in Japan, mostly ethnology department, and a couple of others may be found in very few places around the world. In more than ten years collecting Taiwan aboriginal stuff, I only saw 2 of these knives, and one of them is mine now and is the one displayed here. The other one was too expensive for me to buy, and it was bought by another private collector I know. In fact, these knives are very, very rare.
If I had to evaluate how rare, I would say there are only a couple of hundreds (around 200 ?) still existing, most of them in museums and ethnology dep., the other still in the hands of their original owners – Paiwan chiefs/witches lineage – or collected by private collectors.

To Nonoy : Scholars don’t know where these knives are coming from. They could have been imported as the Paiwan that used them and the other contemporary aborigines tribes didn’t know how to make iron and bronze till the 20th cent. The second hypothesis is that the bronze knives could have been made before, much earlier by the ancestors of the Paiwan but the knowledge was lost, or by another insular ethnic group that disappeared. The fact is that places were iron was made and bronze casted were found on the island, some of them dating back long long time ago. But what happened after is a mystery ? Another fact is that trade was very well developed few thousand years ago as taiwanese jade was exported all around Asia (spectrographic analysis of jade samples found all around Asia and dating few thousand years ago showed that most of the stones were coming from one place in Taiwan). In fact, this jade industry and exportation is what initiated the migration from the island to give birth to the wide austronesian spread all over south east asia and the Pacific. So it's easy to imagine the other way around, with these knives being imported into the island. Concerning the iron making, the aborigines began to make their own knives in the 1920s, taught by the Japanese that wanted to develop the local economy in the aboriginal villages (the principle is that when the aborigines are busy trading and making money they are not making war, mostly against the colonial power that were the Japanese at that time)

To Kukulza : I think that most of these knives are still in Taiwan, and the ones that left the Paiwan families were sold by the Paiwan themselves --- not looted. Everything coming from the aborigines that you can find today outside the aboriginal villages was given away by the aborigines themselves or stolen by them from their own people to be sold to the outsiders. It’s only recently that some kind of tribal pride has appeared accompanied by a cultural revival and a rediscovery of the traditions. Unfortunately, most of the traditions and heritage have been lost and what is recovered looks often more like a folkloric/touristic thing. In some case, when mixed with politics, it can become some kind of extreme militantism, with a more romantic/utopic than realistic dimension.

To migueldiaz : I don’t know if there is something close in China today, but the fact is that the kind of design on these ceremonial knives are very close to the Dongson civilization of South China and Indochina, and also the Shang and Chou period in antique China.

To fearn : How old are they ? We don’t know, but they are old, very old. It’s very possible that the iron blades have been changed and readjusted to the bronze handle because of the corrosion due to the age.

27th March 2006, 04:26 PM	#2
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	More of these ceremonial knives Thank you Tim. For you and the others that are interested I posted hereafter the pictures of the two most beautiful of these kind of ceremonial or ritual knives that I have ever seen. The first one is very long with 56 cm and is one of the masterpiece of the Shunye Museum of Aboriginal art, in Taipei, and the second one, measuring 42 cm, is in the collections of the Sankokan Museum of the Tenri University, in Japan. Attached Images

19th March 2010, 03:30 PM	#11
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	The bronze knives of the Paiwan Thanks for your interest and your nice comments. This kind of knives are seldomly seen outside museums, even in Taiwan. Outside the island, only few of them have been collected in Japan, mostly ethnology department, and a couple of others may be found in very few places around the world. In more than ten years collecting Taiwan aboriginal stuff, I only saw 2 of these knives, and one of them is mine now and is the one displayed here. The other one was too expensive for me to buy, and it was bought by another private collector I know. In fact, these knives are very, very rare. If I had to evaluate how rare, I would say there are only a couple of hundreds (around 200 ?) still existing, most of them in museums and ethnology dep., the other still in the hands of their original owners – Paiwan chiefs/witches lineage – or collected by private collectors. To Nonoy : Scholars don’t know where these knives are coming from. They could have been imported as the Paiwan that used them and the other contemporary aborigines tribes didn’t know how to make iron and bronze till the 20th cent. The second hypothesis is that the bronze knives could have been made before, much earlier by the ancestors of the Paiwan but the knowledge was lost, or by another insular ethnic group that disappeared. The fact is that places were iron was made and bronze casted were found on the island, some of them dating back long long time ago. But what happened after is a mystery ? Another fact is that trade was very well developed few thousand years ago as taiwanese jade was exported all around Asia (spectrographic analysis of jade samples found all around Asia and dating few thousand years ago showed that most of the stones were coming from one place in Taiwan). In fact, this jade industry and exportation is what initiated the migration from the island to give birth to the wide austronesian spread all over south east asia and the Pacific. So it's easy to imagine the other way around, with these knives being imported into the island. Concerning the iron making, the aborigines began to make their own knives in the 1920s, taught by the Japanese that wanted to develop the local economy in the aboriginal villages (the principle is that when the aborigines are busy trading and making money they are not making war, mostly against the colonial power that were the Japanese at that time) To Kukulza : I think that most of these knives are still in Taiwan, and the ones that left the Paiwan families were sold by the Paiwan themselves --- not looted. Everything coming from the aborigines that you can find today outside the aboriginal villages was given away by the aborigines themselves or stolen by them from their own people to be sold to the outsiders. It’s only recently that some kind of tribal pride has appeared accompanied by a cultural revival and a rediscovery of the traditions. Unfortunately, most of the traditions and heritage have been lost and what is recovered looks often more like a folkloric/touristic thing. In some case, when mixed with politics, it can become some kind of extreme militantism, with a more romantic/utopic than realistic dimension. To migueldiaz : I don’t know if there is something close in China today, but the fact is that the kind of design on these ceremonial knives are very close to the Dongson civilization of South China and Indochina, and also the Shang and Chou period in antique China. To fearn : How old are they ? We don’t know, but they are old, very old. It’s very possible that the iron blades have been changed and readjusted to the bronze handle because of the corrosion due to the age.

25th March 2006, 03:20 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Magnificent!! A pleasure to see.

27th March 2006, 04:33 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Superb artistry and casting on the second example. How wonderful to have one, even if not quite as fine as these two.

27th March 2006, 04:54 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	These are lovely examples ! Please keep showing us Taiwanese ethnograpich weapons Yuanzhumin , they are seldom seen on the forum .

14th March 2010, 06:52 AM	#7
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	You're an expert and I a novice. You're a collector and historian, and I use machetes in the woods. I've heard of and seen pictures of these bronze knives... but I know little to nothing about them - let alone having one. You're very fortunate to have one... Hold onto it and keep good care of it, please!!! If only the looted bronze knives were returned to Taiwan, or even to the Paiwanese people... It's always good to see stuff from the home(is)land pop up on this forum.

14th March 2010, 11:39 AM	#8
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	thanks for sharing! would there be mainland china blades that are similar in shape? thanks in advance

14th March 2010, 03:55 PM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I suspect the tradition of ceremonial bronze knives was widespread, because they showed up in Korea as well. However, the Korean knives don't look at all like these, and as far as I can tell, their design is unique to Taiwan. How old are they? Absolutely wonderful to see them. F

14th March 2010, 05:12 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Very beautiful artifacts! Somehow "phurpa" immediately came to mind when I saw these. Not necessarily implying a connection, but it is very interesting to yet again find parallel and separate development of similar forms and treatments.