Sardinian Miquelet for comment and information

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

... Particularly I would be very interested to know the purpose of the hollow tube which serves as the comb of the stock. To me it would easily catch in clothing. This feature appears in pics which I have found in books, so is not a feature of this gun only...

Anyone ... Philip ?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Anyone ... Philip ?

I haven't seen mention of it in the references I have so far; am waiting for Gen. A. Gaibi's Armi da Fuoco Italiane to arrive in the mail with hopes that me has addressed the question. When I prepared my original post for the thread I mulled it over, thought of a hypothesis but scrapped it upon reconsideration.

This is one of those weapons that we see all the time on the market (surprising that a relatively small, mainly rural island made so many guns!) but there seems to be no deep research about them.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Philip

I haven't seen mention of it in the references I have so far; am waiting for Gen. A. Gaibi's Armi da Fuoco Italiane to arrive in the mail with hopes that me has addressed the question. When I prepared my original post for the thread I mulled it over, thought of a hypothesis but scrapped it upon reconsideration.

This is one of those weapons that we see all the time on the market (surprising that a relatively small, mainly rural island made so many guns!) but there seems to be no deep research about them.

Hi Philip,
I am interested in your comment that Quote: "we see (these guns) all the time on the market".
Any reference from "modern times" I have seen, including from reputable dealers describes these as "rare".
Stu

[Philip]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Philip,
I am interested in your comment that Quote: "we see (these guns) all the time on the market".
Any reference from "modern times" I have seen, including from reputable dealers describes these as "rare".
Stu

I follow auctions in the States, the EU, and the UK via their online catalogs and through bidder alert services and these guns do pop up with some regularity. Examples of exceptional quality and condition don’t show up often but I don’t regard the genre as being rare within the universe of antique and collectible firearms.

[corrado26]

There must have been produced quite a lot of these guns, because after the establishment of the "Regno" in 1720 under Vittorio Amadeo II. of Savoia. The Sardenian militia troops have been armed with such guns. These militia troops then became the base for a Sardinian regiment, that has been fighting against the French in 1745 to 1747 and in 1792-1793.
corrado26

[Ian]

I'm definitely not an antique gun guy but this gun interests me, particularly the small tube on the top of the stock.

The gun has a long barrel and is of relatively small bore, suggesting it would be reasonably accurate at some distance. However, there is no obvious aiming device to facilitate accuracy at any distance. The tube on the stock obviously held something, and I'm going to suggest that it held an aiming device (a sight) that could be adjusted up and down for aiming at various distances. The tube lines up with the center of the barrel, which would support my theory. However, there is no foresight and I'm not sure how the gun was aimed without one.

Ian.

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.

Congratulations. Nice find. As mentioned, this one seems to have been made in a more "utilitarian" manner. Simply meaning less decoration than usually seen like the ones posted by Corrado. And as Philip mentioned, it has a typical patilla style miquelet lock. Perhaps the owner of this piece already had access to the lock and was also on a more restricted budget (?) Just speculating.
But the profile, decoration, trigger guard, etc. are all similar to others. It's hard to believe that this very paticular style of gun came from one little island. And as Philip mentions, a real mix of styles and cultures.

Philip and Corrado: Thanks very much for the explainations. I really was not that familiar with the guns history.

Stu: That missing brass piece on the right side of the stock should be easy to replace since you have an identical piece on the left side. Especially if you know an engraver in your area. It's so much easier to duplicate when you have an original physical piece to work from. Strange that it is missing with all those tiny brass nails that were holding it in place. Does not look like it was broke off. Just removed for some reason. Curious.

Anyway, it's a great looking piece and appears in good condition. And an interesting variation of what you normally encounter. I like it.

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Ian

I'm definitely not an antique gun guy but this gun interests me, particularly the small tube on the top of the stock.

The gun has a long barrel and is of relatively small bore, suggesting it would be reasonably accurate at some distance. However, there is no obvious aiming device to facilitate accuracy at any distance. The tube on the stock obviously held something, and I'm going to suggest that it held an aiming device (a sight) that could be adjusted up and down for aiming at various distances. The tube lines up with the center of the barrel, which would support my theory. However, there is no foresight and I'm not sure how the gun was aimed without one.

Ian.

Hi Ian.

Well, that may be the best guess yet. When you first mentioned this it made me think of the Japanese matchlocks that used seperate rear sight pieces (depending on anticipated range) that were removable.
So maybe this tube held different rear sight pieces used for the same purpose (?) Hmmmm. But they all seem to have this same tube. A really curios feature with these guns.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ian

I'm definitely not an antique gun guy but this gun interests me, particularly the small tube on the top of the stock.

The gun has a long barrel and is of relatively small bore, suggesting it would be reasonably accurate at some distance. However, there is no obvious aiming device to facilitate accuracy at any distance. The tube on the stock obviously held something, and I'm going to suggest that it held an aiming device (a sight) that could be adjusted up and down for aiming at various distances. The tube lines up with the center of the barrel, which would support my theory. However, there is no foresight and I'm not sure how the gun was aimed without one.

Ian.

Hi Ian,
There acutally IS a brass foresight but it is fairly small and appears somewhat worn down.
Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Ian

However, there is no obvious aiming device to facilitate accuracy at any distance. The tube on the stock obviously held something, and I'm going to suggest that it held an aiming device (a sight) that could be adjusted up and down for aiming at various distances. The tube lines up with the center of the barrel, which would support my theory. However, there is no foresight and I'm not sure how the gun was aimed without one.
Ian.

Hi guys,

I believe too that Ian is right.
I don't know the topography of this island.
Is it possible to have an aiming device to shot from above, from a cliff for example?
Mainly for hunting purpose... Then this thing will make sense...

Kubur

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by fernando

Anyone ... Philip ?

Interesting.... all 3 guns shown above have the same tube.......
Stu

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Interesting.... all 3 guns shown above have the same tube.......
Stu

Hi Stu

I notice the tube tapers with the comb of the butt stock. Does the hole run full length ? Or just a short distance ?

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu

I notice the tube tapers with the comb of the butt stock. Does the hole run full length ? Or just a short distance ?

Rick

Hi Rick,
No, the hole goes approx 2" into the tube, and if you look at the top view pic above, you will see that there are 3 pins down thru the top of the tube holding it to the stock.
If the hollow tube is to hold some sort of sighting device (as suggested above) then 2" should be sufficient for this purpose.
Stu

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rick,
No, the hole goes approx 2" into the tube, and if you look at the top view pic above, you will see that there are 3 pins down thru the top of the tube holding it to the stock.
If the hollow tube is to hold some sort of sighting device (as suggested above) then 2" should be sufficient for this purpose.
Stu

Hi Stu

OK. Yes, now I see the pins holding the tube to the stock. Since the hole only travels about 2 inches, this might be evidence towards Ian's theory of some type of rear sighting apparatus. Hmmmm. At the moment, I can't think of anything else. Hopefully, if true, one of these sight pieces will turn up one day.

It's my understanding that the seperate rear sight pieces for the Japanese matchlocks are quite rare and would have easily been lost. I've only seen pictures of them from collectors in Japan.

In any case, it's a real nice piece for your collection. Hope you decide to get the missing brass decoration replaced.

Rick

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Stu

OK. Yes, now I see the pins holding the tube to the stock. Since the hole only travels about 2 inches, this might be evidence towards Ian's theory of some type of rear sighting apparatus. Hmmmm. At the moment, I can't think of anything else. Hopefully, if true, one of these sight pieces will turn up one day.

It's my understanding that the seperate rear sight pieces for the Japanese matchlocks are quite rare and would have easily been lost. I've only seen pictures of them from collectors in Japan.

In any case, it's a real nice piece for your collection. Hope you decide to get the missing brass decoration replaced.

Rick

If, has been suggested the tube is for holding a "sighting piece", would one recognise the sight if one found one? Not knowing what it looks like would make correct identification nigh impossible. I have not seen anything attached in pics in any books I have, though there are pics of the guns.
As an aside, these would obviously have been used with a powder flask of some sort. Does anyone have an idea of what these flasks might have looked like?
Stu

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

If, has been suggested the tube is for holding a "sighting piece", would one recognise the sight if one found one? Not knowing what it looks like would make correct identification nigh impossible. I have not seen anything attached in pics in any books I have, though there are pics of the guns.
As an aside, these would obviously have been used with a powder flask of some sort. Does anyone have an idea of what these flasks might have looked like?
Stu

Hi Stu

Probably no one would reconize what it was for. LOL The tubes are obviously intentially made with that hole. And all the guns seem to have them. So there has to be some specific purpose. The tube does travel quite a ways up the comb and wrist area of the gun. With the hole ending a similar distance as a peep sight. So there may have been one or more seperate pieces utilized as a rudimentry rear sight for longer range shooting, similar to the seperate pieces on the mentioned Japanese matchlocks. Would easily be lost. Of course this is just conjecture on my part. But I believe Ian's thought is the best guess at the moment. Hope we find out one day.

Flasks: That's a good question. I don't recall ever seeing a flask that was directly attributale to the Island. Hmmm. Maybe Artzi has seen one ? Might be worth asking.

Rick