Portuguese navigator sword for comments

[kronckew]

Sharpened guard disks, usage?

How about the 'Mordstreich' - Murder Strike? The disks make it a nice double axe. Punching would be effective too.

I've seen Italian falchions with the upturn on the finger guard, not being symmetrical, the turn-up was on the right. On mine, it (experimentally) did not increase the ease of picking up the sword whichever side it was on. Didn't try it with a gauntlet tho. It did seem to offer a bit more protection to the second joint on my finger in a parry.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

... It did seem to offer a bit more protection to the second joint on my finger in a parry.

I take it that there must be a more "convincing" explanation. In some cases these buttons existed in both hilt sides.


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[shayde78]

Please have your wives call mine to advise her where to shop for my presents!!

[Madnumforce]

I'm sorry, but as much as I'd like it to be true (because this kind of folded tang is very often seen on French billhooks, and I search every bridge I can find between tools and swords), I find this tang to be a bit suspicious. The patina doesn't seem to be right at all, like if it was just a few years old. Can you confirm?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

because this kind of folded tang is very often seen on French billhooks,

The issue of patina aside, I note that tangs folded over the pommel at right angles is an aspect of tool construction not restricted to parts of Europe. I've seen it on any number of native-made bush knives and agricultural implements from SE Asian and Far Eastern cultures, and the practice spills over into tool designs modified for use as weapons as well. It's almost universal on the handles of kitchen utensils and knives from China and Vietnam as well. It's a practical and simple assembly method, albeit lacking in visual elegance. Looseness in the grip caused by wood shrinkage is very easily remedied by tapping the bent portion of the tang with a hammer until it seats tightly again.

I wouldn't be surprised if this system was used in parts of Africa as well; I am not familiar with the material cultures there so perhaps other forumites can address this.

The point is that, considering the nascent Portuguese empire's exposure to African and Asian cultures in the wake of the early voyages from the Atlantic and across the Indian Ocean to the East China Sea, there are all kinds of way that various aspects of material cultures encountered along the way could have been adopted. Also significant is the fact that the Portuguese utilized the resources and labor of local craftsmen wherever they went to provide the tools and infrastructure needed to further their conquests and colonial endeavors.

[kronckew]

I ca't say for african swords, but african axes frequently have a tanged head that is burnt into the haft and the end bent over. (yjey also can be peened over a keeper)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

... I find this tang to be a bit suspicious. The patina doesn't seem to be right at all, like if it was just a few years old. Can you confirm?...

Well Geoffroy, the only thing i find suspicious is the quality of the picture i took, rather 'astonishing'; besides a bit of a cleaning, due to some local top rust. But i would not doubt the sketch shown in post #1, drawn by the Nany Museum technical consultant, where this fixation method is shown as a system.
I will upload here pictures of two examples shown in the same publication, belonging to private collectors, added by a couple citations written by the said expert. I don't expect you read portuguese, but i trust that you trust the quoted evidence .

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[Madnumforce]

All this is rather interesting. Thank you Fernando for the complementary information. I'm not that surprised that finally I discover a type of sword with a bent-over tang, but just the aspect of it, the lack of patina, which looks like it was just forged, with scale in just-out-of-the-forge condition. This was puzzling me.

I agree with you all that this method of fixation is extremely commonplace on tools in general, but precisely it is never seen on swords, despite its obvious advantages. Well, not exactly "never" have I just discovered.

[fernando]

The picture i took from the pommel had the flash activated, after been rubbed with a slightly abrazive washing sponge soaked in WD40 and oiled afterwards; maybe this contributed for a looking as new aspect. It was all me trying to rub off some rust near the tang bent end.
There certainly must be a metallurgic explanation for the apparent lack of patina. In any case it is visible that it has not been tampered with; and so far i am confident over that.

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[Philip]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

All this is rather interesting. , but precisely it is never seen on swords, despite its obvious advantages. Well, not exactly "never" have I just discovered.

You may as well stay tuned to the Ethnographic forum because someone is bound to post some weapon that has utilizes a bent tang to anchor its hilt. The tribal cultures of Asia or the Pacific Rim come to mind, I distinctly recall encountering it on certain short swords of the Taiwan highland aborigines, and other groups in mainland SE Asia. It's surprising how certain elements become associated with just one thing, or area, but turn out to be fairly widespread. I used to associate ring-shaped pommels with China, but found out later that they are perhaps developed from such on bronze-age knives unearthed in southern Mongolia, and are also seen on some early Celtic long swords.