kris identification needed

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai, I cannot recall ever having seen this "double lip" as in Paul's scabbard.

Bargello, Dresden State Museum holdings, Copenhagen (including the Royal Kunstkammer), Oriental in Venice, Mangkunegaraan, Radya Pustaka, Surakarta Karaton, the old Musium Pusat in Jakarta --- I've come up empty. Then I can add the uncountable number of keris and keris dress that I've seen, handled, or owned over my lifetime. Empty.

Might have seen it, but cannot recall having done so.

Can you point me at some other examples of this style?

Cirebon and North Coast gandar sometimes have kruwingan, but usually with an ada-ada in the bottom half.

Unusual features can occur in any artifact that has not been produced in a controlled environment. Where the wearer of a keris has freedom of expression, unseen variations can occur. Any area that is under the control of a kraton will be restricted by the relevant karaton styles and mores. Where freedom of expression exists both craftsmen and their clients can come up with all sorts of previously unseen variations and interpretations.

Actually, I seem to recall that Jensen shows a similar scabbard to Paul's that he calls a Solo style, but its is not, it is Madura/East Jawa, and that has a ridge on the face, not dissimilar to Paul's. I'd look it up if I could, but my copy of Kris Disk won't run properly.

[Paul B.]

Thanks gentlemen and I will add a few more pics later.

@ Alan: is this the Solo Gayaman from Jensen? I checked the disk and only came across this fig. 68 and it might have a double hanging down lip but the pic is to vague to be sure.

[Paul B.]

Sizes: 12,5 cm wide / 41 cm tall.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks Paul, yes, that's the Jensen one I had in mind.

The blade is Segaluh, but in my mind I had this complete keris as Madura East Jawa, but with the Segaluh blade? Maybe not. Been a long while since I've seen the pic. Tell me, is that the full pic? No pendok? I thought I remembered a Madura pendok. Maybe this thing is a montage. One thing is certain, not Solo.

The length would seem to rule out anything associated with Bali on your keris.

[Paul B.]

The pic from the disk added as a printscreen. The pendok (pimped?) has a strong Madurese vibe.
Again a poor pic.
BTW> My disk got stuck also, I bought a new one and saved the content as PDF files and I can search trhu it much quicker and it won't fail anymore!

[Paul B.]

Here are some more pics.

Remarks:
Why rule out Bali? The size of another typical Bali kris fits within the paramters?
Besides the elevation seen on the gandar (not perfectly straight) is a feature that speaks for it so is the somewhat similar mata ideng.
A blade with a max of 38 cm would fit in.
The slot opening shows a wide opening. Sizes: 8,5 x 1,3 cm.
It still puzzles me...

Last pic shows a Banten kris with double lip too. Not sure if that is the right path we should search.

[A. G. Maisey]

Kai:- thanks for your clarification, I understand what you mean now.

Yes, the ladrangs do have what you are calling a "double lip", but I have not seen anything similar to Paul's gayam. I'm afraid I am unable to transfer characteristics from one wrongko form to another wrongko form, to do so would be to disallow what I have been taught.

However, what you are doing is probably quite valid, after all, Cirebon is not a part of the "Land of Jawa", and once you move from Javanese core values the way of appraisal that I have been taught is not really applicable.

Paul:- yes, that was the picture in my mind.

I only mentioned Bali because I was thinking in terms of far east or north east Jawa, where there is a lot of Bali influence, yes, there are shorter Bali keris, but I've never seen anything like this associated with Bali. If your wrongko had been longer I might have continued to entertain the idea of Bali, but now I understand what you and Kai regard as the double lip, I'm inclined to accept the idea of Sunda influence.

Yes, I understand that there are ways around the Jensen problem, I did have it on my external hard drive for my old computer, but the HD packed up years ago. I seldom find a need for Jensen, my interests do not coincide with the way in which Jensen treats the keris, he looks at it from a perspective that ceased to interest me much a long time ago. But it used to be useful from time to time to help me understand what some other people were talking about. I'll probably borrow a copy from a friend and put it into my computer.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

I cannot recall ever having seen this "double lip" as in Paul's scabbard.

I'm attaching a pic of Kai Wee's keris exhibiting an IMHO related feature: The contour running up at the left side of the scabbard (i. e. the shorter end when the outside is on display) fully continues as an engraved line towards the left tip resulting in two "lips" rather than just a single upper rim as in most keris scabbards.

This feature is also seen in Wien #91.919 and probably Skokloster #6959/7042; some of the Kunstkammer scabbards exhibit an essentially identical line running towards the tip (some have chipped tips a few may not reach the tip though):
Sendai
Dresden #2897
Dresden #2896

And a stone sculpture referred to the 15th/16th century also shows the "double lip" feature (Museum Nasional Jakarta 310d) very clearly! (Cp. Weihrauch 2001, Fig. 18.)

Cirebon and North Coast gandar sometimes have kruwingan, but usually with an ada-ada in the bottom half.

True, these tend to have an ada-ada to continue towards the tip. However, some seem to have this ridge tethering out and also the Kunstkammer keris scabbards seem to exhibit quite a bit of variability...

I'd look it up if I could, but my copy of Kris Disk won't run properly.

That sucks. Try to clean it (polishing away scratches may be a resort) and load a copy of the PDFs on your computer (and digital back-up)...

If your CD is dead, a fellow collector may be able to assist, too.

Regards,
Kai