"A Passion for Indian Arms" Book Review

[Mercenary]

So we don't have accurate information about the significance of the three holes except for the trade mark or just simple decoration (if only the owners of these swords was all educated philosophers or theologians) and don't have information about any meanings of other holes in the case of Indian weapons, unlike of Chinese "seven stars" (I attached the photo above)?

[ariel]

Under normal circumstances I would agree that a single medial hole, filled or not, in the case of Jens’ sword and the one in #42 is just a remainder of the old brace. I do have a saber with an old European blade and Indo- Muslim ( Tulwar) handle the ricasso of which bears a footprint of an earlier brace of a basket hilt and an unfilled hole for a rivet.


However , in both cases presented here, there is not one but several such plugged holes in tight formations. I am unaware of any old khanda or patissa swords where the brace of the basket handle required so many tightly- grouped rivets at its distal end. One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual.

I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me. But the use of these holes for purely “engineering” purposes
is dubious.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by ariel

I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me.

This is often true in Moro/Filipino and Indonesian examples. I offer this comparison to bolster the argument from cultures who had contacts with the Indian subcontinent.

[Mercenary]

Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?

[mariusgmioc]

Very intersting discussion!
At first I was also convinced the filled holes have some talismanic or decorative purpose but... now I'm not so sure anymore. Are there any exmples of such "talismanic" fillings on Tulwar blades for example? I haven't seen any.
I believe that the hypothesis that the holes are simply from previous mountings is very logical and quite plausible.

However, in the case of the sword from #42, if the holes are from previous mounts, why are they so close to eachother as this would not serve well to the rigidity of the mounting and may even compromise the strength of the blade. And if they come from different mountings, I would expect one to adapt the mounting to the blade and use the existing holes and not drill another hole so close to an existing one.

[Kubur]

Talismanic inscriptions and decorations are very well known (blessing and protection)
In the case presented I do not believe in old rivet holes.
There is another option already mentionned above:

proof marks or factory/quality marks.

You have some brass or even gold fillings on Ottoman blades.
They are always connected to a workshop and demonstrate the skill of the smith and the quality of the blade.

Some of these marks including stamps became talismanic with time.
I think at the gurda marks for example.

Happy new year
Kubur

[Jens Nordlunde]

I do believe that Kubur is right.
If you want to try to undertand some of it, you will have to look for the the influence of other countries.
Sorry but I will have to drop out once more.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?

Here is an example: Indian tulwar with 2 plugs, one at each end of the blade.
One can wonder about the one close to the handle, but the one near the tip could not be used for a brace:-)

[ariel]

And another one: three plugs close to the tip

[Likhari]

Now we are talking Ariel !

Thanks for posting these examples. Braces were not used for curved tulwars unless they were the heavy Tegha type as shown in the attached example. The presence of a single hole at each end of the blade on post #60 is intriguing. Do they run through the blade to the other side ?

The holes in the tulwar in post #61 are quite common and do not run through the blade. We can speculate that they are decorative, aniconic , or just part of the fullering.

[Likhari]

"One would have to postulate histories of several basket hilts to which these blades were attached. This would be highly unusual."

And from where my dear Dr. Barkan did you get the idea that it was unusual for an Indian blade to have multiple hilts during its lifetime ?

High quality blades like the one shown in #42 or the one shown by Jens were considered prized heirlooms in India. Hilts on Indian swords were changed at the slightest whim. Often times a Maharaja would come out with a slight variation of a traditional hilt and all his courtiers were required to use the same kind of hilt on their swords in order to demonstrate their loyalty to the Maharaja.

I am surprised that my fellow forumites are not using Occam's Razor in this discussion and are instead trying to look for exotic reason without being able to provide any reference whatsoever !

[Ian]

Likhari,

I think we can agree that rehilting of Indian swords was a common enough event. However, the drilling of new holes for those rehilts may not have been common. It would be easiest to reuse the old ones, which is what I think Ariel was saying.

Ian.

[Likhari]

Originally Posted by Ian

Likhari,

I think we can agree that rehilting of Indian swords was a common enough event. However, the drilling of new holes for those rehilts may not have been common. It would be easiest to reuse the old ones, which is what I think Ariel was saying.

Ian.

You make an excellent point Ian but you have to remember that the style of the brace on these straight blades also changed with the hilt and a different style of brace might require some retooling on the blade.