Another Dha: I am puzzled

CharlesS · 23rd March 2006, 04:46 AM

...exactly! The blade is not old and the quality of the blade is poor, especially the fullering. The hilt is either new or totally reworked. I sure could use that baldric, though, on some of mine that are missing their's!

Andrew · 23rd March 2006, 05:00 AM

My eye is getting dull, I guess.

This looks new to me, but not that bad. Certainly it's of far better quality than the tourist stuff we see so often.

PUFF · 23rd March 2006, 07:07 AM

I agree with you that the blade is far better than those mass-produced tourist piece in the market. The sword was custom made not long time ago (I means 50 yo or less) for an unknown purpose . It 's not very new either. Newer blades are mostly made of old leaf spring or carbon steel but old sabre seems to be the material for this one. And the black lacquere on the handle 's not popularly used anymore. In short, only the price 's not right. I would pay only a portion above "buy it now" stuff for this piece.

Mark · 23rd March 2006, 04:17 PM

Puff, you raised an interesting question for me in that last post, when you said that the black lacquered handle is not something that is popular any more. Can you point out any stylistic or manufacturing or material characteristics of daab that reflect a certain date or era? I find the Ayutthaya & Rattanakosin styles fairly easy to identify, but I am sure there are other indications that can pin-point a date more precisely. Both "Ayutthaya Period" and "Rattanokosin Period" cover many centuries, and styles & methods must have evolved during those periods

The thing that vexes me most in my study of dha and daab is the lack of a chronological frame of reference. For example, there are two pretty distinct styles of Shan dha, but whether or not they are regional variations, ethnic variations, or chronological variations is something I just don't know. It would be great to be able to say "This one was made between ____ and ____, because that is when the button pommel was used," or "Black lacquer was used on handles starting around _____, then fell out of popularity by about _____."

PUFF · 24th March 2006, 02:57 AM

It 's quite difficult to pinpoint or even estimate age for SEA blades because of huge gap between city an rural area. Due to bad logistic, most of westernized stuff are concentrated in the city. The oldest rail tract 's only 100 yo (and our subway is only 3 yo

) When Ayuthaya people using firearms in their army, Lanna people rarely see them. And when city craftmen using modern lacquere for years, people in the rural area still using black resin. As you may notice from several <50 yo blades. While Aranyik craftmen choose rounded hardwood for their hilt. Lampang craftment still using rattan rope but modern clear lacquere is often used as coat material. While some other rural area still using "Rak" or black resin for coating material. And in modern day (says 20 years), "Rak" 's rarely produced since all furniture factory choose modern cheaper wood vanish. That make "Rak" 's being expensive and used only for antique restoration or custom made stuff.
Regarding to the pommels, which are often associated with better made blades, uncarved handle. Those are in Ayuthaya period are likely to be appear in lotus figure. And later, when Rattanakosin people deveopted another style of art (finer and more detailed). The Buttons are evolved to be "less" lotus such as onion or pumpkin with many lobes or even clear conical thing.

I will try my best to your "fill in the blank" test.

Not very precise, though.

"This one was made between Mid- and Late Rattanakosin, because that is when the button pommel was used," or "Black lacquer was used on handles starting around old day (early Ayuthaya, I guessed), then fell out of popularity by about Late Rattanakosin."

Ian · 24th March 2006, 01:54 PM

PUFF:

You're an important treasure trove of dha/daab information.

Please do keep refining the time scales because these are helpful and necessary for our dating schemes. Much appreciated.

Ian.

Mark · 24th March 2006, 06:23 PM

Great information. Every little bit is a treasure, because we are so in the dark over here.

23rd March 2006, 04:46 AM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	...exactly! The blade is not old and the quality of the blade is poor, especially the fullering. The hilt is either new or totally reworked. I sure could use that baldric, though, on some of mine that are missing their's! Last edited by CharlesS; 23rd March 2006 at 04:47 AM. Reason: error

24th March 2006, 01:54 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,470	Great stuff PUFF: You're an important treasure trove of dha/daab information. Please do keep refining the time scales because these are helpful and necessary for our dating schemes. Much appreciated. Ian.

24th March 2006, 06:23 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Thanks! Great information. Every little bit is a treasure, because we are so in the dark over here.

23rd March 2006, 05:00 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	My eye is getting dull, I guess. This looks new to me, but not that bad. Certainly it's of far better quality than the tourist stuff we see so often.

23rd March 2006, 07:07 AM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I agree with you that the blade is far better than those mass-produced tourist piece in the market. The sword was custom made not long time ago (I means 50 yo or less) for an unknown purpose . It 's not very new either. Newer blades are mostly made of old leaf spring or carbon steel but old sabre seems to be the material for this one. And the black lacquere on the handle 's not popularly used anymore. In short, only the price 's not right. I would pay only a portion above "buy it now" stuff for this piece.

23rd March 2006, 04:17 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Puff, you raised an interesting question for me in that last post, when you said that the black lacquered handle is not something that is popular any more. Can you point out any stylistic or manufacturing or material characteristics of daab that reflect a certain date or era? I find the Ayutthaya & Rattanakosin styles fairly easy to identify, but I am sure there are other indications that can pin-point a date more precisely. Both "Ayutthaya Period" and "Rattanokosin Period" cover many centuries, and styles & methods must have evolved during those periods The thing that vexes me most in my study of dha and daab is the lack of a chronological frame of reference. For example, there are two pretty distinct styles of Shan dha, but whether or not they are regional variations, ethnic variations, or chronological variations is something I just don't know. It would be great to be able to say "This one was made between ____ and ____, because that is when the button pommel was used," or "Black lacquer was used on handles starting around _____, then fell out of popularity by about _____."

24th March 2006, 02:57 AM	#5
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	It 's quite difficult to pinpoint or even estimate age for SEA blades because of huge gap between city an rural area. Due to bad logistic, most of westernized stuff are concentrated in the city. The oldest rail tract 's only 100 yo (and our subway is only 3 yo ) When Ayuthaya people using firearms in their army, Lanna people rarely see them. And when city craftmen using modern lacquere for years, people in the rural area still using black resin. As you may notice from several <50 yo blades. While Aranyik craftmen choose rounded hardwood for their hilt. Lampang craftment still using rattan rope but modern clear lacquere is often used as coat material. While some other rural area still using "Rak" or black resin for coating material. And in modern day (says 20 years), "Rak" 's rarely produced since all furniture factory choose modern cheaper wood vanish. That make "Rak" 's being expensive and used only for antique restoration or custom made stuff. Regarding to the pommels, which are often associated with better made blades, uncarved handle. Those are in Ayuthaya period are likely to be appear in lotus figure. And later, when Rattanakosin people deveopted another style of art (finer and more detailed). The Buttons are evolved to be "less" lotus such as onion or pumpkin with many lobes or even clear conical thing. I will try my best to your "fill in the blank" test. Not very precise, though. "This one was made between Mid- and Late Rattanakosin, because that is when the button pommel was used," or "Black lacquer was used on handles starting around old day (early Ayuthaya, I guessed), then fell out of popularity by about Late Rattanakosin."