2 Victorian Lances

[fernando]

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

No. Its a known fact that cavalry were despised for their lance tactics..How many references repeat this..Flopping off ones horse was very bad..in a melee...it was the end!! Not a myth for what its worth..but fair comment...

I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt; which contemporary eyewitness sources are you relying upon?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

May i admit that i tend to fully agree with the essence of Dmitry's last posts.

In a another perspecive, i find it amazing to see how wide the amplex of discussions on any determined weapon may reach; as close to discuss Gunga Din (that his name ?) underwear colour ... if you guys know what i mean .

BTW ... does it pass through your minds, english speaking guys, how many meanings there are for the PC initials ? .

Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand. Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme. I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie.
The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times. I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S.

With the notes on lancers being quite despised, it was that it was thought less than honorable in combat to contact your opponent at a safe distance, as well as the horrifying prospect of being skewered on a pole. Also there were the realities of the often not immediately fatal wounds which carried debris from clothing (or even pennons) deep into the wounds bringing about fatal and lingering sepsis.
I will try to find my notes which were actually discussing 'the use of the lance' as well as circumstances surrounding those who used them.

One of the true reasons there were as many fatalities in the famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo in 1815 was that in the chaos which rather inherently results as the horsemen broke through the French redoubts, the Greys became scattered and unable to regroup. As the survivors scattered through the smoke and din, and officers lost among this, the French lancers were moving through these areas and with stunned riders or injured on the ground did dispatch many more of the Greys.

While not necessarily uncommon in battle, dispatching the wounded enemy, it is the thought of the lance having such dastardly connotation, which led to more disdain. The use of sword, knife or pistol in carrying out this common practice does not absolve the act regardless of weapon used.

It is most interesting to look at the historical perspectives concerning a certain weapon as often the manner of their use or the persons using them offer us clues in identifying them as well as often the period in use.

[Victrix]

I found the following on the perceived ruthlessness of lancers:

”In the memoirs of Waterloo, the French lancers, galloping at will over the battlefield, sending saber-armed cavalry fleeing before them, and calmly stopping to finish off the wounded without even having to dismount, appear as an image of horror. Wyndham of the Scots Grays saw the lancers pursuing British dragoons who had lost their mounts and were trying to save themselves on foot. He noted the ruthlessness of the lancers' pursuit and watched them cut their victims down. Some British cavalrymen on foot slipped in the mud and tried to ward off the lance blows with their hands but without much success.
At Waterloo Sir Ponsonby together with his adjutant, Major Reignolds made a dash to own line, and a French lancer quickly began pursuing them. While they were crossing a plowed field, Ponsonby's horse got stuck in the mud in an instant, the lancer was upon him. Ponsonby threw his saber away and surrendered. Reignolds came to his aid, but the lancer compelled both of them to dismount under the threat of his lance. At that moment, a small group of Scots Grays happened to pass a short distance away, saw the three, and galloped shouting in their direction with the idea of liberating Sir Ponsonby. "In a flash, the Frenchman killed the general and his brigade major with 2 blows of his lance, then boldly charged the oncoming dragoons striking down 3 in less than a minute. The others abandoned the combat, completely incapable of holding their own against the enemy's deadly weapon." (Barbero - "The Battle" p 163)”

http://www.napolun.com/mirror/web2.a..._Napoleon.html

[Jim McDougall]

Victrix, I thank you so much for that most telling account. That is exactly the scenario I was thinking of in my description, but could not find the source in which I had it.
There are of course many myths in the lore of battle, but many of the described notions held by historians are well founded such as this case.

Artillery levied a heavy toll on other ranks in battle, but I have never heard of any specific animosity toward them by troops as they were overrun or in many cases captured. Usually when defeat was imminent, guns would be abandoned but not without being 'spiked' or rendered otherwise useless if possible.

There are many sides of the perspectives of combat, and no particular account can say exactly how matters were between combatants. In this case, a contemporary account is shown regarding the lancers which illustrates the disdain for them as described.

[Victrix]

Yes thank you Jim, the account does seem to support your notion. Callous but brave seems a good description of the lancers. Sticking down the poor unarmed General Ponsonby does not seem like good sport, although charging the numerically superior dragoons was undeniably brave.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Being a Lancer was fraught with danger and at the second battle of El Teb a particular danger was outlined here~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...tles_of_El_Teb

Quote" After a brief artillery duel, the Mahdist guns were silenced, and the British advanced. The Mahdists hid in trenches to avoid incoming British rifle and artillery rounds, then rushed out in small groups of twenty to thirty warriors instead of the massive attack that was expected. Another tactic was to pretend to lie dead on the battlefield as British cavalry charged through, then, as the cavalry returned at a slower pace back through the ranks of the 'dead', the Mahdists would rise up and slit the hamstrings of the horses then proceed to kill the riders. At the top of the hill, a village had been fortified by the Mahdists, and here they resisted the most stubbornly. The British infantry had to clear the trenches with bayonets after which the fighting died down."Unquote.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Actually I mentioned the movie "Last of the Bengal Lancers" as it was a theme obviously referring to the use of the lance in British cavalry in India, which seemed to have some bearing on the discussion at hand... Wayne mentioned the movie "Gunga Din" not only because of the period objective, but because there were scenes in the movie that showed lances in use in the same theme...

I don't recall such movie being exhibited over here, but i remember well one called "The Lives of a Bengal Lancer" here ran as "Lanceiros da India", with Gary Cooper (1935). I fail to remember if i managed to see it, potentialy by not being able to afford it or for being under age. So i ignore whether the name lancer was just their 'title' or if in fact they used lances on the field .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I don't recall any discussion of 'underwear' but as you have shown interest, Sam Jaffee was wearing a loincloth (as Gunga Din) in the movie...

What an entry Jim; one you would label as 'absolutely superb' . I take a note on such well documented Gunga's outer wear. I know that you mentioned it to be of my interest, but i believe you knew my reach was instead a screamingly distinct one; like hoping that this thread, resurrected from 2012, would not now conduct its colateral fait divers to something like 'The art of killing with a lance" .

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... The PC comment was I think simply to note the differences in the movie making etc. of today vs. the often licentious portrayals in movies of those times...

I knew what Wayne mean, as one. I was trying to mark a thinking out score in that, such acronym out there has several meanings, personal computer for one. But all in all my reach was to distract us from derailing from the lance subject per se to a (more) gory periphery. Any battle weapon and its user are intendedly meant to damage the enemy; but i take it that we are not here to compete on whether one is more critisizable or damnable than the other

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I am always surprised at the awareness of all the people I communicate with in many countries who are sometimes more aware of such popularly used acronyms and buzz words than many people here in the U.S. ...

Is that a true inferrement ?. To make it right about such assumption, one would have to make a comparison between peoples of similar cultural levels and not (like often) comprehending an illiterate from one side with a well informed from the other, a rather common comparison driving to fake conclusion. Certainly many of us are not aware that the "politically correct" term was a movement that gained populariry in America by the nineties. Notably these depictions were perhaps expanded in the times of Gunga Din (for one) to reafirm prejudice, but eventually nowadays, we keep seeing in the movies, scenes of similar impact but, on the contrary, as a manner to condemn them.
But i couldn't go without quoting a member who prefered to do it by PM, on grounds that he wouldn't wish to stir further the off topic pot, in that a good example of PC is "Johnny Depp playing tonto in the lone ranger, no matter how good he is in the role" .

Apparently there is not much (easily affordable) info on the web about Portuguese lances. In any case a rather resumed story, as the origin of lancers forces is more than well identified.
Avoiding to risk repeating how much has being said about this subject, i will here just upload the pennants timely used by Portuguese forces, minding that our Lancers units became the current Military Police.
Noteworthy that, the purpose of pennants in the midle ages was aledgedly that of both identifying the heraldic sign of their knights and impressing the adversary with their 'flaming' waves. This could be true or not, but surely less gory than its purpose being to soak them with the enemy's blood, a not so romantic approach .

1 - 1833-1890
2 - 1890-1891
3 - 1891- actuality
4 - Military (army) Police since 1980.
5 - A lancer of the 'old' British 17th regiment, the emblem and motto adopted by the Portuguese 2nd. Lancers.

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