Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

Boedhi Adhitya · 20th March 2006, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

Hi Pusaka,
Please remember, the 12 kg. I said are considered as "raw iron". After 'refining process', (wasuh, 'to wash'), that is, to weld iron bar onto itself back and forth, the 'cleaned' iron amount would only as many as 5 kg. or so. The 12 kg are the raw iron materials needed to make what traditionally called 'Tangguh Sedayu', which is believed to have approx. 4096 pamor layers, which is by many experts here in Java, considered as the most-layered keris ever made in Java. Other tangguh may need iron less. Please also remember, all of this information, as I recall, came from Empu Djeno, which may have done some 'research' or experiment on this subject. I believe his father, Supowinangun, did not leave any note, because unfortunatelly, according to Empu Jeno himself, his father was illiterate. There is no exact amount on the materials used in keris making here in Java, everything judged by experience.

I have not read any old and 'credible' traditional notes/script/book about keris which explain the keris making process, and thus, we may only rely on the works of Westerner likes Gronnemen, Jasper&Pirngadie or Garret Solyom. In fact, traditional book likes Serat Centhini, as I recall, didn't write about meteorite as pamor material, while it warn about the 'danger' of 'unproper' pamor pattern. But other traditional books write a lot about the iron and it's 'Tuah' ('magic power'). It also said 'The Steel gives strenght, The Iron gives 'Powers', and The Pamor gives lusters/radiance'. Pamor also called 'Sekaring Braja' (sekar=bunga=flower, braja=weapon/blade). Thus, a keris blade without pamor, which also called 'Pamor Wulung' (wulung=black), exists, but I have never seen a 100% keris blade made of pamor materials. (while never seen is not necessarily didn't exist, I may confidently enough to say, there is no 100% meteorite-made keris blade in Jogjakarta Court's Pusaka Inventories). The reasons behind this 'fact' may be as many as we could imagine, but as Eskimos/Inuit http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col168.html and our friend Jeff Pringle shown us, it is possible to make a blade with 100% meteorite materials. If it is condidered as 'very powerful' by Javanese, some King/Sunan/Sultan in Java may commisioned one too

But I didn't said that it has no 'power' at all

Yes, pamor material were used to sold in market. Not only the meteorite, but also the 'Luwu' or 'Bugis' pamor. The meteorite ones were said to be more expensive than gold. The Prambanan wasn't an exclusion. While the biggest part was brought to Surakarta court, the small pieces left from it was 'mined' and traded for years. And also, when the Sunan of Surakarta commisioned keris(es), the empus may took the small pieces which was fallen when they cut the meteorite. This practices called 'Ngalap Berkah', and still practised today on virtually any events/ceremonies in both Courts (Surakarta and Jogjakarta).

About 70% meteorite content, well, have the seller do the scientific analysis on the blade? Or was he watching when the empu forged it?

Personally, I would very happy to pay more on a good keris with 'pamor wulung' (that is, without pamor) than to buy 'roughtly made' keris with meteoric pamor. I suggest, we should 'make sure' about what we really looking for/expecting from a keris, before we have one (or two, or hundreds

) If we have made our intentions clear, with the help of knowledges, we may found the blade we wish, and may avoid unnecessary disappointment. Just be careful when 'keris fever' come

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

nechesh · 21st March 2006, 12:07 AM

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding everyone that terrestial iron is considered very magickal in keris making, probably as much if not more so than meteorite. In fact, iron is a material that has been considered very powerful and magickal by cultures all around the world for a very long time.
Thanks also for the link to the article on Innuit meteorite blades. Isn't it nice that when Perry discovered the source of their iron that he set out to steal it all.

I did not mean to imply in my earlier response to Pusaka that 70% or even pure meteoric blades were not possible to forge, just that i doubted deeply that you would find such a make-up in a keris. I have seen such blades before, including this marvelous blade below. It is apparently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, an Alaskan native American. He states that it was one of 2 blades made from a fall near Klukwan many generations ago by a man names Khu ch'eesh. It is 27" long.

VANDOO · 21st March 2006, 01:21 AM

THE PERCENTAGE OF METEORITE IN A BLADE SHOULD NOT HAVE A LARGE EFFECT ON THE MAGICAL POWER OF THE WEAPON. THE SOURCE OF THE METEORITE WOULD , FOR INSTANCE IN INDONESIA A BLADE WITH SOME OF THE SAME METEORITE USED BY THE ROYAL COURT IN THE OLD DAYS WOULD BE CONSIDERED MORE POWERFUL AND DESIRABLE THAN SPECIMINS FROM AFRICA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY. A MAGICAL TAILSMAN NEED NOT BE LARGE TO HAVE POWER AS THE POWER IS IN THE BELIEF, FAITH AND RESPECT OF THE OWNER. MAGIC IS NOT LIKE MAKEING 10000 GALLONS OF CHICKEN SOUP WITH ONLY ONE SMALL CHICKEN AND WATER ,MAGIC ISN'T DILUTED AND DOSEN'T LOSE ITS STRENGTH AS LONG IS THE BELIEF IS STILL THERE.

IF I WERE WANTING TO MAKE A LOT OF MAGICAL KERIS I WOULD GATHER UP SOME SCRAP OF OLD KERIS, SEVERAL METEORS AND A LOT OF IRON. I WOULD THEN PICK A TIME OF THE YEAR CONSIDERED TO BE STEEPED IN MAGIC PERHAPS THE SOLSTICE. THEN TAKE THIS TO A SPOT OF POWER ON THE EARTH THE NEAREST ONE I KNOW OF TO ME IS ENCHANTED ROCK IN TEXAS. IT IS THE THIRD LARGEST MONOLITH ON EARTH, AYERS ROCK IS LARGEST, STONE MOUNTAIN NEAR ATLANTA IS SECOND. I WOULD WATCH THE WEATHER FOR A FORECAST OF A GOOD STRONG STORM AND THEN TAKE THE MATERIALS TO THE TOP AND PUT UP A LIGHTNING ROD IN THE CENTER OF IT AND WHEN A BIG STORM CAME THRU IT WOULD RECEIVE MULTIPLE STRIKES. THAT SHOULD CHARGE UP THE METALS IF ANYTHING COULD, AND THEN TAKE IT COMBINE IT AND MAKE AS MANY KERIS BLADES AS POSSIBLE FROM IT OR PERHAPS HAVE A NOTED PANDAY MAKE THEM WITH THE PROPER RITUALS. TO GET LIGHTENING CHARGED IRON WITHOUT THE TROUBBLE USE OLD LIGHTNING RODS IN THE MIX, SOME OFF THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WOULD BE COOL IF THEY ARE EVER REPLACED.

A CHEAP EASY WAY TO MAKE ALL YOUR EDGED WEAPONS METEORITE POWERED, TAKE A METEORITE AND RUB IT GENTLY ALONG THE BLADE TRANSFERING A LITTLE CHARGE AND A FEW MOLECULES TO THE BLADE.

I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE IN MYSTICISM OR MAGIC BUT DO UNDERSTAND WHY SOME DO. THERE ARE MANY FORCES AND THINGS HERE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE SENSES TO DETECT AND MUCH MORE THAT WE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND SO I GUESS I AM STILL A BIT TRIBAL.

BSMStar · 24th March 2006, 07:29 PM

Gee, have I been asleep at the wheel...

It is possible to determine if there is a meteoritic content with a minimally destructive test. The issue is finding an Electron Microprobe...

The surface must have a very small area polished (that is the destructiveness of the test). The Electron Microprobe will determine what elements are available. Earth surface rocks do not have the same availability of trace elements as meteorites. The trace elements are the fingerprint used to identify cosmic materials. Therefore, even if there is only one percent meteoritic material in the metal, it is still possible to tell if meteoritic material is present or not.

If there is only a small percentage of meteoritic material in a Keris, then looking at Ni content alone will not be an indicator of cosmic origin since the majority of Ni is not from the meteorite itself. Therefore, short of testing, there really is no way to know if a Keris has meteoritic material in it.

Great article Rick!

VANDOO · 27th December 2011, 03:30 AM

HERE ARE 3 EXAMPLES OF KNIVES WHERE THE BLADES ARE MADE FROM A SLAB OF NATURAL UNFORGED METEORITE. THEY ARE JUST SHAPED AND POLISHED MECHANICALY. TWO ARE FROM THE GIBEON METEORITE AND PART OF THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE METEORITE WAS LAFT NATURAL UNWORKED OR POLISHED. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS TYPE OF BLADE WOULD HOLD UP, BRITTLE, NOT TAKEING OR HOLDING A GOOD EDGE

AT ANY RATE THIS DOES SHOW METEORITES COULD HAVE BEEN WORKED USING PRIMATIVE METHODS SO A OLD UNFORGED METEORITE BLADE IS NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION.

VANDOO · 2nd June 2016, 07:46 PM

I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER.

Bob A · 2nd June 2016, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER.

A link to above:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...aps.12664/full

I was surprised that the authors of the paper seemed unaware of the use of meteoric iron in the Indonesian culture.

21st March 2006, 12:07 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding everyone that terrestial iron is considered very magickal in keris making, probably as much if not more so than meteorite. In fact, iron is a material that has been considered very powerful and magickal by cultures all around the world for a very long time. Thanks also for the link to the article on Innuit meteorite blades. Isn't it nice that when Perry discovered the source of their iron that he set out to steal it all. I did not mean to imply in my earlier response to Pusaka that 70% or even pure meteoric blades were not possible to forge, just that i doubted deeply that you would find such a make-up in a keris. I have seen such blades before, including this marvelous blade below. It is apparently in the hands of Harold Jacobs, an Alaskan native American. He states that it was one of 2 blades made from a fall near Klukwan many generations ago by a man names Khu ch'eesh. It is 27" long. Attached Images

24th March 2006, 07:29 PM	#4
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	It is in the trace elements... Gee, have I been asleep at the wheel... It is possible to determine if there is a meteoritic content with a minimally destructive test. The issue is finding an Electron Microprobe... The surface must have a very small area polished (that is the destructiveness of the test). The Electron Microprobe will determine what elements are available. Earth surface rocks do not have the same availability of trace elements as meteorites. The trace elements are the fingerprint used to identify cosmic materials. Therefore, even if there is only one percent meteoritic material in the metal, it is still possible to tell if meteoritic material is present or not. If there is only a small percentage of meteoritic material in a Keris, then looking at Ni content alone will not be an indicator of cosmic origin since the majority of Ni is not from the meteorite itself. Therefore, short of testing, there really is no way to know if a Keris has meteoritic material in it. Great article Rick!

27th December 2011, 03:30 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE 3 EXAMPLES OF KNIVES WHERE THE BLADES ARE MADE FROM A SLAB OF NATURAL UNFORGED METEORITE. THEY ARE JUST SHAPED AND POLISHED MECHANICALY. TWO ARE FROM THE GIBEON METEORITE AND PART OF THE OUTER SURFACE OF THE METEORITE WAS LAFT NATURAL UNWORKED OR POLISHED. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THIS TYPE OF BLADE WOULD HOLD UP, BRITTLE, NOT TAKEING OR HOLDING A GOOD EDGE AT ANY RATE THIS DOES SHOW METEORITES COULD HAVE BEEN WORKED USING PRIMATIVE METHODS SO A OLD UNFORGED METEORITE BLADE IS NOT OUT OF THE QUESTION. Attached Images

2nd June 2016, 07:46 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I JUST RAN ACROSS A CURRENT ARTICLE ON ONE OF THE DAGGERS FOUND IN KING TUTS TOMB. THEY ARE SAYING THE IRON BLADE IS LIKELY MADE FROM A IRON NICKEL METEORITE. A PICTURE OF THE DAGGER. Attached Images

21st March 2006, 01:21 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE PERCENTAGE OF METEORITE IN A BLADE SHOULD NOT HAVE A LARGE EFFECT ON THE MAGICAL POWER OF THE WEAPON. THE SOURCE OF THE METEORITE WOULD , FOR INSTANCE IN INDONESIA A BLADE WITH SOME OF THE SAME METEORITE USED BY THE ROYAL COURT IN THE OLD DAYS WOULD BE CONSIDERED MORE POWERFUL AND DESIRABLE THAN SPECIMINS FROM AFRICA OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY. A MAGICAL TAILSMAN NEED NOT BE LARGE TO HAVE POWER AS THE POWER IS IN THE BELIEF, FAITH AND RESPECT OF THE OWNER. MAGIC IS NOT LIKE MAKEING 10000 GALLONS OF CHICKEN SOUP WITH ONLY ONE SMALL CHICKEN AND WATER ,MAGIC ISN'T DILUTED AND DOSEN'T LOSE ITS STRENGTH AS LONG IS THE BELIEF IS STILL THERE. IF I WERE WANTING TO MAKE A LOT OF MAGICAL KERIS I WOULD GATHER UP SOME SCRAP OF OLD KERIS, SEVERAL METEORS AND A LOT OF IRON. I WOULD THEN PICK A TIME OF THE YEAR CONSIDERED TO BE STEEPED IN MAGIC PERHAPS THE SOLSTICE. THEN TAKE THIS TO A SPOT OF POWER ON THE EARTH THE NEAREST ONE I KNOW OF TO ME IS ENCHANTED ROCK IN TEXAS. IT IS THE THIRD LARGEST MONOLITH ON EARTH, AYERS ROCK IS LARGEST, STONE MOUNTAIN NEAR ATLANTA IS SECOND. I WOULD WATCH THE WEATHER FOR A FORECAST OF A GOOD STRONG STORM AND THEN TAKE THE MATERIALS TO THE TOP AND PUT UP A LIGHTNING ROD IN THE CENTER OF IT AND WHEN A BIG STORM CAME THRU IT WOULD RECEIVE MULTIPLE STRIKES. THAT SHOULD CHARGE UP THE METALS IF ANYTHING COULD, AND THEN TAKE IT COMBINE IT AND MAKE AS MANY KERIS BLADES AS POSSIBLE FROM IT OR PERHAPS HAVE A NOTED PANDAY MAKE THEM WITH THE PROPER RITUALS. TO GET LIGHTENING CHARGED IRON WITHOUT THE TROUBBLE USE OLD LIGHTNING RODS IN THE MIX, SOME OFF THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WOULD BE COOL IF THEY ARE EVER REPLACED. A CHEAP EASY WAY TO MAKE ALL YOUR EDGED WEAPONS METEORITE POWERED, TAKE A METEORITE AND RUB IT GENTLY ALONG THE BLADE TRANSFERING A LITTLE CHARGE AND A FEW MOLECULES TO THE BLADE. I DON'T PERSONALLY BELIEVE IN MYSTICISM OR MAGIC BUT DO UNDERSTAND WHY SOME DO. THERE ARE MANY FORCES AND THINGS HERE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE SENSES TO DETECT AND MUCH MORE THAT WE JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND SO I GUESS I AM STILL A BIT TRIBAL.