The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

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Old 26th November 2012, 06:18 PM #251

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim
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#252

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Ibrahiim,
In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s.
The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows.
Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings.

All the best,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim ~ Thanks for your reply and it is further interesting that the Mamlukes were taken over by the Ottomans because of the Red Sea;
The Mamluki palace coffers were filled with booty, riches and gold from the throughput trade to the rest of Europe from China via the Mamluke Empire, thus, the importance of the Red Sea hub in the days before the Ottomans (Othmanli) struck. It was in fact the Portuguese on entering the Indian Ocean who closed the Red Sea to Chinese trade. Once that had been achieved the Mamluke Sultanate simply went bust. Since its army was essentially 100% mercenary (Mamluke essentially means mercenary/slave) the general collapse was fast. It was then that the Ottomans went for it. (I reccommend the amazing work on the Mamlukes by John Glubb Pasha).
Back to earth ~ The remarkable pictures posted by VANDOO at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14049 and others shows the extent to which these Red Sea weapons blades equate.. though this may only be coincidental...and in terms of the double edged Shiavona blades the resemblence is very close. What I mean is in comparison to the straight blades at #1 second picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...LACE+COLLECTION

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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#253

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim, I have just entered a reply on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118 which is a fascinating thread By Jean-Marc S encompassing the little known world of Heraldry and Coats of Arms.(or perhaps the well known by a few). I suggested on that thread that it would be an excellent idea to persue that along the same lines that you have done with this vital informational encyclopedia on blade marks and include this note for your information...and by way of moderator support request this as a Forum idea.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th January 2013, 06:08 AM #254

Posred by.
Valjhun
Member

Join Date: Dec 2005

Thanks to Ibrahiim, who reminded me of this wonderfull thread, Im posting a Peter Munich marking from a karabela sword whom thread Ive opened recently. link: karabela with munich mark

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Old 28th January 2013, 11:32 AM #255

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

It would be a pity if members don't visit the " Classic Threads " thread, which is in a sticky position on the top of the front page:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118

... Such is the importance we give to themes like the one in question.

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Old 11th March 2014, 05:22 PM #256

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Originally Posted by fernando
It would be a pity if members don't visit the " Classic Threads " thread, which is in a sticky position on the top of the front page:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14460

... Such is the importance we give to themes like the one in question. (Quote)

I totally agree!!
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Old 19th March 2014, 03:26 PM #257

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Salaams All.. This strange sword has appeared from somewhere in Africa; I presume. But what it is I have no clue. Apologies in advance as the full sword picture failed to come out.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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