The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany
Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972
CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886)
CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921)
CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972)
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 05:23 PM #224

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Maker Marks: Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company
Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company, Solingen Germany (commonly referred to as WKC) changed their company name at least three times between 1883 and 1970
WEYERSBURG, KIRSCHBAUM & COMPAGNIE (1883-1930)
WKC STAHL-UND EISENWARENFABRIK (1930 - 1950)
WKC STAHL-METELLWARENFABRIKHANSKOLPING (1950 - 1970)
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 06:25 PM #225

Posted by:
DaveA
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
Examples of blade-maker marks
Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 06:30 PM #226

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

P107, Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons
"The markings on a blade made by Johannes Wundes (1560-1620)..
King's head
Imperial orb
Passau wolf
.

[fernando]

pril 2012, 06:40 PM #227

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Ibrahiim for your kind words toward this thread which truly has had great input over the years, though could certainly use a great deal more!
I'm glad it gets the traffic it does regardless, and always hope the contributions which have been placed here have been found useful by other researchers.

Regarding the Shotley Bridge Sword Co., this is quite a complex topic, and actually begins early in the 17th century with German sword cutlers who had come to Hounslow Heath mostly from Solingen. Some cutlers from Birmingham are known to have joined them there, but by about 1660s most of the Solingen makers had returned to Solingen. It seems only a few examples are known marked with Hounslow lettered in the inscriptions, and there are a number of examples of swords marked with the 'Passau wolf' but no other markings associated. The famed maker Peter Munsten as well as Johannes Kindt (later John Kennett) of course marked and inscribed blades accordingly. Munsten is better known for his cabalistic images on blades, but by 1660s returned to Solingen (according to Aylward, 1945).

By around 1687 Hermann Mohll and some of the descendants of the Hounslow workers, along with newly immigrated Solingen makers formed a sword making center at Shotley Bridge in County Durham on the Derwent River. By 1690 blades from Shotley Bridge were being sold at a warehouse in London, but the enterprise was temporarily ceased when Hermann Mohll got in trouble with importing German blades ironically, and closing down sometime on or before 1703. Mohll reopened in 1716 (as Hermann Mohll & Son) and the business moved to Birmingham around 1832 from Shotley Bridge (the forerunner of Robert Mole, the famed maker who later was acquired by Wilkinson).

There is some evidence or suggestion of crossed swords being used by the firm but I have seen no evidence of examples of blades with such mark.
There are walloon hilt swords with blades marked in the fullers SHOTLEY BRIDGE from the time of the Monmouth Rebellion and Marlborough Campaigns but no specific symbolic markings I am aware of.

This is an excellent question Ibrahiim, and I hope the data I have compiled is of some use explaining more of what these blades may have had on them. There is considerable material on these German swordsmiths in England in both Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, along with the somewhat irrelevant mystery of the Hollow Sword Co. which seems to have been more a real estate venture than sword enterprise.

All best regards,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim, I bumped into a peculiar reference in the Met Museum of Art archives about hollow swords and it appears that swords were actually made by "The Hollow Sword Blade Company" with a hollow blade filled with mercury so that the weight on thrusting was transferred down the blade to the tip therefor giving extra weight to the momentum...

To source this reference simply tap into web search Swords From The Dresden Armoury from which I Quote "One learns, for example, of the Hollow Sword Blade Company which was chartered for the professed purpose of making hollow swords with running mercury inclosed to gravitate to the point when a blow was struck and so increase the weight and momentum of the stroke". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 10th April 2012, 03:48 AM #228

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c.

This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors.

The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut.
They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept.

In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade.
While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues.

To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered.

Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!!

All the very best,
Jim
.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

[gp]

Originally Posted by Victrix

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

[toaster5sqn]

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, toaster .
Nice rapier with a pierced hilt. The 'anchor' symbol is, as you know, 'often' seen in both Spanish (Toledo) and also in German (Solingen) blades. If you browse the term on the Shearch button above you will find various approaches on this subject.
The letters on the left are not doubt those of the blade smith (PERO ?); most probably different letters appear on the other side.
It would be useful to see photos of both sides in all their graphic extent, to try and identify their contents.
When you post such pictures, we will see what knowledged members have to say about the marks on this sword.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

Glad to have you here, and well done on the work of your group identifying weapons and seeing that they are properly labeled. It is most important to those of us who have spent many years studying arms and armor to do that very thing, and we've been doing it here for well over 20 years.

As you have noted, what appears to be a makers(?) name appears in the fuller and it was often a Spanish convention to interpolate astrological and or occult symbols with inscriptions to imbue magic potential in effect to the blade. The 'anchor' was also a device which was used at the fuller terminus or to end an inscription on a blade in a punctuation sense.
These are always interesting as there are nuanced variations in the elements of these cross style devices mostly in the numbers of branches/bars .

As Fernando has noted, Germany was most avid in using copies of these as well on blades they made often with spurious markings and inscriptions from Spanish and Italian makers.

Often on blades there were unusual groupings of letters which may have been acronyms for phrases or invocations, while names copied in Germany may often be misspelled or improperly used.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Often on blades there were unusual groupings of letters which may have been acronyms for phrases or invocations, while names copied in Germany may often be misspelled or improperly used...

Jim, this is the reason why i have suggested that, more adequate assessments may take place when photos of each side of the blade with the complete inscriptions are shown.
Probably you didn't read my post .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, this is the reason why i have suggested that, more adequate assessments may take place when photos of each side of the blade with the complete inscriptions are shown.
Probably you didn't read my post .

Actually Fernando I have learned to read your posts very carefully so as not to infringe on your assessments. My attention was to the nature of the inscriptions and acronyms or names in them, which was what was being queried.

I saw no need to say more regarding matters involving which side of the blade they were on or if they were connected etc. as you had already (as you have emphasized) mentioned it.
My response had nothing to do with photography and preferred postures or images, and described the content of inscriptions in a general sense.

I did not say more on thoughts on the sword itself as this thread is on markings, not sword identification, and I almost suggested a separate thread, but that is your department.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by gp

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

Actualy on 1 yugoslavian dukat that is not hand with sword neither is that sword, that is actuali two birds on the sides and tre holder in the midle, that is one mark, other is corn.
Sword mark is only used in austrian dukat sword surounded with stars.
Cheers.

[werecow]

The so far unidentified mark below was seen on a most likely early 18th c Dutch shell guard sword as shown in this video where the criminally undersubscribed current owner takes it apart. He gives a more detailed description of the sword here. The blade also has VOC marks, Z (for Zeeland) and M (for Middelburg), and "1717" (presumably a date). Possibly also a D on the shoulder of the blade. The pommel side is on the bottom of the image.

I looked through Kinman's "European makers of edged weapons, their marks" and Lenkiewicz' "1000 Marks of European Blademakers" and this thread, but I did not find any exact matches.

Does it ring any bells?