The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum.
The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic.

While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly.

The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together.
The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker.
.

[fernando]

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany
Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972
CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886)
CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921)
CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972)
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 05:23 PM #224

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Maker Marks: Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company
Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company, Solingen Germany (commonly referred to as WKC) changed their company name at least three times between 1883 and 1970
WEYERSBURG, KIRSCHBAUM & COMPAGNIE (1883-1930)
WKC STAHL-UND EISENWARENFABRIK (1930 - 1950)
WKC STAHL-METELLWARENFABRIKHANSKOLPING (1950 - 1970)
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 06:25 PM #225

Posted by:
DaveA
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
Examples of blade-maker marks
Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 06:30 PM #226

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

P107, Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons
"The markings on a blade made by Johannes Wundes (1560-1620)..
King's head
Imperial orb
Passau wolf
.

[fernando]

pril 2012, 06:40 PM #227

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Ibrahiim for your kind words toward this thread which truly has had great input over the years, though could certainly use a great deal more!
I'm glad it gets the traffic it does regardless, and always hope the contributions which have been placed here have been found useful by other researchers.

Regarding the Shotley Bridge Sword Co., this is quite a complex topic, and actually begins early in the 17th century with German sword cutlers who had come to Hounslow Heath mostly from Solingen. Some cutlers from Birmingham are known to have joined them there, but by about 1660s most of the Solingen makers had returned to Solingen. It seems only a few examples are known marked with Hounslow lettered in the inscriptions, and there are a number of examples of swords marked with the 'Passau wolf' but no other markings associated. The famed maker Peter Munsten as well as Johannes Kindt (later John Kennett) of course marked and inscribed blades accordingly. Munsten is better known for his cabalistic images on blades, but by 1660s returned to Solingen (according to Aylward, 1945).

By around 1687 Hermann Mohll and some of the descendants of the Hounslow workers, along with newly immigrated Solingen makers formed a sword making center at Shotley Bridge in County Durham on the Derwent River. By 1690 blades from Shotley Bridge were being sold at a warehouse in London, but the enterprise was temporarily ceased when Hermann Mohll got in trouble with importing German blades ironically, and closing down sometime on or before 1703. Mohll reopened in 1716 (as Hermann Mohll & Son) and the business moved to Birmingham around 1832 from Shotley Bridge (the forerunner of Robert Mole, the famed maker who later was acquired by Wilkinson).

There is some evidence or suggestion of crossed swords being used by the firm but I have seen no evidence of examples of blades with such mark.
There are walloon hilt swords with blades marked in the fullers SHOTLEY BRIDGE from the time of the Monmouth Rebellion and Marlborough Campaigns but no specific symbolic markings I am aware of.

This is an excellent question Ibrahiim, and I hope the data I have compiled is of some use explaining more of what these blades may have had on them. There is considerable material on these German swordsmiths in England in both Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, along with the somewhat irrelevant mystery of the Hollow Sword Co. which seems to have been more a real estate venture than sword enterprise.

All best regards,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim, I bumped into a peculiar reference in the Met Museum of Art archives about hollow swords and it appears that swords were actually made by "The Hollow Sword Blade Company" with a hollow blade filled with mercury so that the weight on thrusting was transferred down the blade to the tip therefor giving extra weight to the momentum...

To source this reference simply tap into web search Swords From The Dresden Armoury from which I Quote "One learns, for example, of the Hollow Sword Blade Company which was chartered for the professed purpose of making hollow swords with running mercury inclosed to gravitate to the point when a blow was struck and so increase the weight and momentum of the stroke". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

[gp]

Originally Posted by Victrix

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

[toaster5sqn]

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, toaster .
Nice rapier with a pierced hilt. The 'anchor' symbol is, as you know, 'often' seen in both Spanish (Toledo) and also in German (Solingen) blades. If you browse the term on the Shearch button above you will find various approaches on this subject.
The letters on the left are not doubt those of the blade smith (PERO ?); most probably different letters appear on the other side.
It would be useful to see photos of both sides in all their graphic extent, to try and identify their contents.
When you post such pictures, we will see what knowledged members have to say about the marks on this sword.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by toaster5sqn

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

Glad to have you here, and well done on the work of your group identifying weapons and seeing that they are properly labeled. It is most important to those of us who have spent many years studying arms and armor to do that very thing, and we've been doing it here for well over 20 years.

As you have noted, what appears to be a makers(?) name appears in the fuller and it was often a Spanish convention to interpolate astrological and or occult symbols with inscriptions to imbue magic potential in effect to the blade. The 'anchor' was also a device which was used at the fuller terminus or to end an inscription on a blade in a punctuation sense.
These are always interesting as there are nuanced variations in the elements of these cross style devices mostly in the numbers of branches/bars .

As Fernando has noted, Germany was most avid in using copies of these as well on blades they made often with spurious markings and inscriptions from Spanish and Italian makers.

Often on blades there were unusual groupings of letters which may have been acronyms for phrases or invocations, while names copied in Germany may often be misspelled or improperly used.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...Often on blades there were unusual groupings of letters which may have been acronyms for phrases or invocations, while names copied in Germany may often be misspelled or improperly used...

Jim, this is the reason why i have suggested that, more adequate assessments may take place when photos of each side of the blade with the complete inscriptions are shown.
Probably you didn't read my post .

[serdar]

Originally Posted by gp

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

Actualy on 1 yugoslavian dukat that is not hand with sword neither is that sword, that is actuali two birds on the sides and tre holder in the midle, that is one mark, other is corn.
Sword mark is only used in austrian dukat sword surounded with stars.
Cheers.

[werecow]

The so far unidentified mark below was seen on a most likely early 18th c Dutch shell guard sword as shown in this video where the criminally undersubscribed current owner takes it apart. He gives a more detailed description of the sword here. The blade also has VOC marks, Z (for Zeeland) and M (for Middelburg), and "1717" (presumably a date). Possibly also a D on the shoulder of the blade. The pommel side is on the bottom of the image.

I looked through Kinman's "European makers of edged weapons, their marks" and Lenkiewicz' "1000 Marks of European Blademakers" and this thread, but I did not find any exact matches.

Does it ring any bells?