The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:05 PM

Old 1st December 2011, 03:05 AM #219

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thanks so much for the input Gav, and well placed thoughts on the development of these marks, which seem to be shrouded in mystery as to thier actual origin and development though North Italy seems the most accepted region. These also occur in varied configurations in many Italian blades, most of the arcs do seem to be dentated however.
Good to temporally travel to fanciful places....often there lurk the answers !

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:05 PM

Old 9th December 2011, 02:16 AM #220

Posted by.
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

The arm extending from the cloud brandishing a sword is a decorative device often seen on blades of 17th and 18th c. and came up in a concurrent thread (diamond design in hilt) while discussing certain similarities in motif corresponding to arcane symbolism. The tarot art showing the 'wands' (suit of clubs) has an arms extending in this manner with a wand.

Any other examples of this arm and sword device and thoughts on what it might represent.....associations to tarot type symbolism?
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:05 PM

Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum.
The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic.

While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly.

The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together.
The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker.
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:06 PM

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:06 PM

Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany
Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972
CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886)
CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921)
CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:07 PM

Old 7th April 2012, 05:23 PM #224

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Maker Marks: Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company
Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company, Solingen Germany (commonly referred to as WKC) changed their company name at least three times between 1883 and 1970
WEYERSBURG, KIRSCHBAUM & COMPAGNIE (1883-1930)
WKC STAHL-UND EISENWARENFABRIK (1930 - 1950)
WKC STAHL-METELLWARENFABRIKHANSKOLPING (1950 - 1970)
.

fernando · 19th October 2017, 03:07 PM

Old 7th April 2012, 06:25 PM #225

Posted by:
DaveA
Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
Examples of blade-maker marks
Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
.

Victrix · 10th February 2018, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

gp · 10th May 2020, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

toaster5sqn · 31st July 2021, 02:16 AM

Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial.

So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords.

So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered.
A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark.

serdar · 21st January 2024, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp

it is not as strange as it seems;

the first time the "sword"appears" is when a vasal state ( Kingdom of Bosnia) 1493 of Vladislaus II of Bohemia, Hungary and Croatia appeared;

Coat of Arms with the curved Sword and arm in the yellow coloured shirt

Just to appear later during the Habsburgian occupation in the K.u.K. Inf. Regiment I and IV.
See the belt buckle, Coat of Arms in the officer's sword handle and cap signs

Also taken over by the Yugoslav Kingdom when they used the "sword"( handschar as it was called in the former Yu) as countermark on their 1931 golden ducat.

Back to the painting: it was not that rare to have the curved sword on the banner as many horsemen and footsoldiers came from that region.

Actualy on 1 yugoslavian dukat that is not hand with sword neither is that sword, that is actuali two birds on the sides and tre holder in the midle, that is one mark, other is corn.
Sword mark is only used in austrian dukat sword surounded with stars.
Cheers.

19th October 2017, 03:05 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 1st December 2011, 03:05 AM #219 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thanks so much for the input Gav, and well placed thoughts on the development of these marks, which seem to be shrouded in mystery as to thier actual origin and development though North Italy seems the most accepted region. These also occur in varied configurations in many Italian blades, most of the arcs do seem to be dentated however. Good to temporally travel to fanciful places....often there lurk the answers ! All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:11 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:05 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum. The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic. While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly. The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together. The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker. . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:13 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:06 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222 Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork. All the best, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:14 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:06 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Makers Mark Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223 Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972 CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886) CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921) CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972) . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:15 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:07 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Maker Marks Old 7th April 2012, 05:23 PM #224 Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Maker Marks: Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company, Solingen Germany (commonly referred to as WKC) changed their company name at least three times between 1883 and 1970 WEYERSBURG, KIRSCHBAUM & COMPAGNIE (1883-1930) WKC STAHL-UND EISENWARENFABRIK (1930 - 1950) WKC STAHL-METELLWARENFABRIKHANSKOLPING (1950 - 1970) . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:16 PM.

19th October 2017, 03:07 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons Old 7th April 2012, 06:25 PM #225 Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons Examples of blade-maker marks Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 03:17 PM.

31st July 2021, 02:16 AM	#10
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 75	Hullo all, I've just joined this forum. Although my own collection is extremely limited (1) as New Zealand is not a great place to find antique swords I am an active member of the local HEMA club. As part of the club I have been organizing trips to the Auckland War Memorial Museum to view their collection, sadly hidden in the basement since they reorganized the displays for the WWI centennial. So far we have correctly identified a number of mislabeled swords and provided additional details about even those that were correctly labeled, as a result they are keen to have us back and are getting much more relaxed about letting us actually handle the swords. So for your own pleasure and any information you can provide let me show you some of the markings we have discovered. A 17th C Spanish style rapier 106cm blade, weighing 1188g with a balance point at 5cm. The fuller contains a series of what appear to be astrological signs terminated with some form of anchor mark. Attached Images