The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau

INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum"
IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol?
MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Rick,

I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before.

All the Best
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Katana,

Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life.

All the Best
Jeff

(missing attachments)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:18 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 07:53 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Thank you Dom for the scan.

Just a note that E is a Indian copy of Assaddollah. See my last post on the wolf mark I think this puts it in context.

All the Best
Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:18 PM

Old 24th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Its great to see more outstanding input keeping our thread going!
Dom, thank you so much for sharing the excerpts out of Lebedynsky's great book, and excellent resource that never gets the recognition it deserves. What a perfect Christmas gift .

Jeff, Im glad you're back, and I know this time of year is pretty hectic. As always, you've done an excellent job of compiling data and keeping perspective on the ongoing observations, especially good information on those Latin worded religious invocations.
Interesting on the clearly later added inscription on the Polish sabre, which seem to have been crudely added in imitation of much earlier markings that recall the 'fringia' mark and as you note, numeric applications of dots.
Something that comes to mind with the dots are arrangements of dots relating to religious invocation on the 'paternoster' blades. Need to add more on these and the varying dot arrangements.

Fernando, as always you are on course with your perspectives on the Latin invocations, and I agree that there were corrupted applications often, and that in the ever widening range of copying popular phrases and symbols, much of the original symbolism is lost.

I often wonder just how ancient is this use of marks, invocation and symbolism on weapons. While most of our discussion goes back to the Medeival period, we know that Viking swords carried invocations and superstitious symbolism. I believe that in those swords, typically the Frankish made weapons had makers names in the hilt.

Lets look into the dot arrangements on the 'paternosters' and the Viking markings more.

Thanks very much guys,
All the best, and a very Merry Christmas to all!!!!
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:19 PM

Old 27th December 2007, 04:39 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thought I would look further into the rather esoteric 'Paternoster' blades, which may have some remote associations with numeric dot arrangements found on European blades.
In discussing various methods, whether genuinely effective or not in lightening blades in the 15th and 16th centuries in Europe, Burton ("Book of the Sword", p.136) describes these 'paternoster' blades. Apparantly the numeric arrangements of depressions placed on these blades were termed 'paternosters' because the dots in number suggested the beads in rosaries. He notes that these blades were "...fitted with round depressions which enabled the pious to count the number of his 'vain repititions' even in the dark'. While this practice seems somewhat doubtful, the association does show the implications of religious symbolism imbued in these early blades, in this case I believe that Germany was the origin of many of these.

Although obviously not 'markings', I thought that the numeric symbolism might be pertinant.

Best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:19 PM

Old 4th January 2008, 09:14 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Something interesting I found on the I.H.S.

I.H.S. is the "...monogram of the name of Jesus in Greek 'Iesous'.
'H' is not the Roman 'aitch' but the capital form of the Greek 'eta'.
The mistaken notion that these initials correspond to Roman letters gave rise to the erroneous interpretation that I.H.S. is an acronym for 'Iesus Hominum Salvator' (Jesus, saviour of men) or 'I have suffered'.

from "A Dictionary of Classical, Biblical and Literary Allusions", A.Lass, D.Kiremidjian & R.Goldstein, N.Y. 1987, p.122.

Since these initials do seem to occur on arms and armor occasionally, this seemed interesting.
.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:32 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada To further the discussions on letters stamped; From Cronau INRI = "Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Judaeorum" IHS = "Jesuiten wappen" = Jesuit symbol? MHZGA = "Meine Hoffnung Zu Gott Allein" = My hope to God alone Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:43 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:36 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Rick, I remember this mark from before, and have relooked. Unfortunately I cannot find a match. Part of the problem is that it is a misstrike and only partially seen. I suspect it is a Spanish mark as i cannot find anything close in my German references. I will keep looking for it as well as the swallowtail butterfly mark shown before. All the Best Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:43 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:17 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:45 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Hi Katana, Excellent observations on the dots. This is something I would like to learn more about. My guess is it has to do with Numerology as mentioned before. Below is a polish saber with different dot patterns, clearly added later in its life. All the Best Jeff (missing attachments) . Last edited by fernando; 21st October 2017 at 06:13 PM.

18th October 2017, 07:18 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 07:53 PM Posted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Thank you Dom for the scan. Just a note that E is a Indian copy of Assaddollah. See my last post on the wolf mark I think this puts it in context. All the Best Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:45 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:18 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 24th December 2007, 09:05 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Its great to see more outstanding input keeping our thread going! Dom, thank you so much for sharing the excerpts out of Lebedynsky's great book, and excellent resource that never gets the recognition it deserves. What a perfect Christmas gift . Jeff, Im glad you're back, and I know this time of year is pretty hectic. As always, you've done an excellent job of compiling data and keeping perspective on the ongoing observations, especially good information on those Latin worded religious invocations. Interesting on the clearly later added inscription on the Polish sabre, which seem to have been crudely added in imitation of much earlier markings that recall the 'fringia' mark and as you note, numeric applications of dots. Something that comes to mind with the dots are arrangements of dots relating to religious invocation on the 'paternoster' blades. Need to add more on these and the varying dot arrangements. Fernando, as always you are on course with your perspectives on the Latin invocations, and I agree that there were corrupted applications often, and that in the ever widening range of copying popular phrases and symbols, much of the original symbolism is lost. I often wonder just how ancient is this use of marks, invocation and symbolism on weapons. While most of our discussion goes back to the Medeival period, we know that Viking swords carried invocations and superstitious symbolism. I believe that in those swords, typically the Frankish made weapons had makers names in the hilt. Lets look into the dot arrangements on the 'paternosters' and the Viking markings more. Thanks very much guys, All the best, and a very Merry Christmas to all!!!! Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:46 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:19 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 27th December 2007, 04:39 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thought I would look further into the rather esoteric 'Paternoster' blades, which may have some remote associations with numeric dot arrangements found on European blades. In discussing various methods, whether genuinely effective or not in lightening blades in the 15th and 16th centuries in Europe, Burton ("Book of the Sword", p.136) describes these 'paternoster' blades. Apparantly the numeric arrangements of depressions placed on these blades were termed 'paternosters' because the dots in number suggested the beads in rosaries. He notes that these blades were "...fitted with round depressions which enabled the pious to count the number of his 'vain repititions' even in the dark'. While this practice seems somewhat doubtful, the association does show the implications of religious symbolism imbued in these early blades, in this case I believe that Germany was the origin of many of these. Although obviously not 'markings', I thought that the numeric symbolism might be pertinant. Best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:47 AM.