The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:38 PM

Old 1st December 2007, 07:43 PM

Postd by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

I wanted to address the piece you have posted separately Fernando (so it wouldnt get lost in the text of my previous post !

It is most interesting and seems to be assembled much in the manner of Spanish colonial pieces of late 18th to early 19th century. The guard seems to reflect the traditional downward quillons of early main gauche' and a vestigial shellguard with notched simulation.

It is workmanlike, suggesting the work of a blacksmith, and I am wondering if it might have been constructed in the Spanish colonies. The notched, shallow simulation of shellguard reminds me of hilts seen on espada ancha's of late 18th century. Weapons in these regions, especially in northern Mexico seems to have often been assembled with available components. It would not be hard to imagine an individual in the ersatz units with the Spanish military contriving a knife in the manner of one of these main gauche' to accompany one of the heavy cuphilts that still reflect the beloved rapiers of Spain.

The stamped II is hard to speculate, though the Romal numerals seen on the hilt are symmetrically applied seemingly more in a motif fashion, however they are so deliberate, they seem to imply some inherent meaning. It would be tempting to presume it might have been intended to reflect a unit number associated with the individual. On the curiously applied inscribed X's and linear zigzag under the quillons, I cannot say on the two X's, but it is interesting that the zigzag could be a crude interpretation of lightning. If this is the case, that symbol in the parlance of Spanish symbolism used in early Mexico meant death.

All best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:38 PM

Old 5th December 2007, 01:13 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

While we continue research to keep this thread going I just wanted to bring it up to keep it active. I know there are readers and members out there who have brought out questions before on the markings and inscriptions on blades, and I encourage any of you to please bring them in here. We know that ethnographic weapons often carried European blades, even into the 20th century, in fact in the Sahara these old blades are sometimes still found.

We have made a great deal of progress here examining the history and symbolism involved in many of these markings and inscriptions. I would like to point out that there has been little work done on this topic in recent years, and I feel that the knowledge and expertise shared here on the forum by all of you provides one of the most viable avenues to advance the understanding and data concerning this important subject.

Thanks very much everyone,
All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:39 PM

Old 5th December 2007, 05:08 PM

Posted by:
katana
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent

Excellent thread....excellent information.

I have added this Rapier bladed Firangi to this thread, at Jim's suggestion.
The blade is likely mid to late 17th C - early 18th C. and has a dot pattern, consisting of a row of 4 dots with a singular dot above the third dot. After reading Fernando's post regarding the number 14, I thought it could be a symbollic mark to this effect. I remember from a previous thread that Jim had mentioned that German armourers had used 'dot patterns' as maker's marks....and could be the case here (on the Rapier blade)
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:40 PM

Old 8th December 2007, 02:39 AM

Posted by;
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

I would like to thank David for bringing this excellent example to this thread, as I think it is important to note that these thin rapier blades were indeed mounted on the Indian khanda hilts. We have been discussing this particular sword on a concurrent thread resulting in some outstanding discussion and observations on these foreign blades and their effect on the use of these swords in India.
As David has kindly shown here, and the reason I thought the sword should be posted in this thread is the linear arrangement of four punched dots, which seems surmounted by another. As Fernando has well observed, the magick or talismanic numbers 1441,1414 are often represented in various ways, and are significant in the symbolism often found in markings on these blades.
The use of dots as a numeric in association with other key markings seems well represented in many examples, especially the 'anchors' and of course the 'sickle' marks, but seems quite unusual in this linear fashion.

The number three has obvious connotation, and that of four may well be represented as suggested, in multiplied palindrome or possibly the very simple symbolism of the four elements, the four cardinal directions etc. In trying to establish allegory, possibly the world? wholeness? It is difficult to imagine without more markings along with the dots.

I'd like to hear others thoughts, and as always, hope for other examples of blades with systemic arrangement of dots on blades..with or without other marks.
David, would you mind showing the entire 'firangi' as I'd like to illustrate again a classic example of 'foreign' blades in an important ethnographic weapon that perfectly exemplifies the importance of out topic.
Thank you so much again !
All very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:40 PM

Old 9th December 2007, 04:32 PM

Posted by:
Jeff Pringle
Member

Join Date: Nov 2005

Recently I was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC, and saw in one of their displays of rapiers an example with eyebrow markings in the fuller (very similar to the eyebrows seen on many later, more eastern blades), dated to the late 1500s. Also, an example with the letter ï¿½Sï¿½ stamped into the blade at the end of the fuller, quite similar to a knife I have whose blade is the cut down remains of a 17th C. rapier. Could the ï¿½Sï¿½ be for ï¿½Solingen,ï¿½ or is that too obvious?
-

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:02 PM

Old 9th December 2007, 06:45 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thank you so much for joining us here! Your suggestion on the 'S' on the rapier blade is absolutely not 'too' obvious. I really dont consider anything in that category, as too often the case of not being able to see the forest for the trees comes into play.
"...discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought".
-Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986)

While I cannot say this is the case here, I think it is worth considering and definitely think we should review instances of this 'S' occurring on blades and see what can be found. It should be noted that there were prominant Spanish smiths and marks such as 'Sebastian' (which appears singularly on one obviously German blade 17th c. and the 'Sahagun' which also occurs without secondary name).

Thank you again Jeff, excellent entry! Let's see what we can find

All very best regards,
Jim
-

fernando · 18th October 2017, 07:02 PM

Old 12th December 2007, 02:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I regret not having been able to help feeding this vital thread some further. Museums don't allow for pictures, and book authors don't respond to query emails .
I can only refer to two more examples inventoried in the Viscount of Pindela collection, which is now partly exhibited at the Palace of the Dukes of Bragança, in Guimarães ... with a rope keeping the visitors at distance
One of them, item #70 of the book, a XVIII century cast brass hilt sword with later engraving works, with a curved blade, has in both sides the following inscription:
X EN XX MENÊ XX
In the end of the inscription there is a symbol, naturaly the maker's punction, which represents an anchor, with its top decorated in cross ... as per the book quotation.
The other one, item #73 of the book, a XVIII century sword, with a cofin shaped pommel. The blade, narrow but elegant, has a little fuller and, inside it, in both sides, in major font, the following legend:
" IHN " MINI "

I have emailed the Author of "As Armas e os Barões", asking him to clarify his definition of "fear of God", concerning the legend IN MENE in a sword contained in his book, but i had no answer up to now.

I know the above isn't much; i just hope it's better than nothing

All the best
Fernando
.

18th October 2017, 06:38 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 1st December 2007, 07:43 PM Postd by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 I wanted to address the piece you have posted separately Fernando (so it wouldnt get lost in the text of my previous post ! It is most interesting and seems to be assembled much in the manner of Spanish colonial pieces of late 18th to early 19th century. The guard seems to reflect the traditional downward quillons of early main gauche' and a vestigial shellguard with notched simulation. It is workmanlike, suggesting the work of a blacksmith, and I am wondering if it might have been constructed in the Spanish colonies. The notched, shallow simulation of shellguard reminds me of hilts seen on espada ancha's of late 18th century. Weapons in these regions, especially in northern Mexico seems to have often been assembled with available components. It would not be hard to imagine an individual in the ersatz units with the Spanish military contriving a knife in the manner of one of these main gauche' to accompany one of the heavy cuphilts that still reflect the beloved rapiers of Spain. The stamped II is hard to speculate, though the Romal numerals seen on the hilt are symmetrically applied seemingly more in a motif fashion, however they are so deliberate, they seem to imply some inherent meaning. It would be tempting to presume it might have been intended to reflect a unit number associated with the individual. On the curiously applied inscribed X's and linear zigzag under the quillons, I cannot say on the two X's, but it is interesting that the zigzag could be a crude interpretation of lightning. If this is the case, that symbol in the parlance of Spanish symbolism used in early Mexico meant death. All best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:02 AM.

18th October 2017, 06:38 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th December 2007, 01:13 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 While we continue research to keep this thread going I just wanted to bring it up to keep it active. I know there are readers and members out there who have brought out questions before on the markings and inscriptions on blades, and I encourage any of you to please bring them in here. We know that ethnographic weapons often carried European blades, even into the 20th century, in fact in the Sahara these old blades are sometimes still found. We have made a great deal of progress here examining the history and symbolism involved in many of these markings and inscriptions. I would like to point out that there has been little work done on this topic in recent years, and I feel that the knowledge and expertise shared here on the forum by all of you provides one of the most viable avenues to advance the understanding and data concerning this important subject. Thanks very much everyone, All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:03 AM.

18th October 2017, 06:39 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 5th December 2007, 05:08 PM Posted by: katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Excellent thread....excellent information. I have added this Rapier bladed Firangi to this thread, at Jim's suggestion. The blade is likely mid to late 17th C - early 18th C. and has a dot pattern, consisting of a row of 4 dots with a singular dot above the third dot. After reading Fernando's post regarding the number 14, I thought it could be a symbollic mark to this effect. I remember from a previous thread that Jim had mentioned that German armourers had used 'dot patterns' as maker's marks....and could be the case here (on the Rapier blade) . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:11 AM.

18th October 2017, 06:40 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 8th December 2007, 02:39 AM Posted by; Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 I would like to thank David for bringing this excellent example to this thread, as I think it is important to note that these thin rapier blades were indeed mounted on the Indian khanda hilts. We have been discussing this particular sword on a concurrent thread resulting in some outstanding discussion and observations on these foreign blades and their effect on the use of these swords in India. As David has kindly shown here, and the reason I thought the sword should be posted in this thread is the linear arrangement of four punched dots, which seems surmounted by another. As Fernando has well observed, the magick or talismanic numbers 1441,1414 are often represented in various ways, and are significant in the symbolism often found in markings on these blades. The use of dots as a numeric in association with other key markings seems well represented in many examples, especially the 'anchors' and of course the 'sickle' marks, but seems quite unusual in this linear fashion. The number three has obvious connotation, and that of four may well be represented as suggested, in multiplied palindrome or possibly the very simple symbolism of the four elements, the four cardinal directions etc. In trying to establish allegory, possibly the world? wholeness? It is difficult to imagine without more markings along with the dots. I'd like to hear others thoughts, and as always, hope for other examples of blades with systemic arrangement of dots on blades..with or without other marks. David, would you mind showing the entire 'firangi' as I'd like to illustrate again a classic example of 'foreign' blades in an important ethnographic weapon that perfectly exemplifies the importance of out topic. Thank you so much again ! All very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:12 AM.

18th October 2017, 06:40 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 9th December 2007, 04:32 PM Posted by: Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Recently I was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC, and saw in one of their displays of rapiers an example with eyebrow markings in the fuller (very similar to the eyebrows seen on many later, more eastern blades), dated to the late 1500s. Also, an example with the letter ï¿½Sï¿½ stamped into the blade at the end of the fuller, quite similar to a knife I have whose blade is the cut down remains of a 17th C. rapier. Could the ï¿½Sï¿½ be for ï¿½Solingen,ï¿½ or is that too obvious? - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:13 AM.

18th October 2017, 07:02 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 9th December 2007, 06:45 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Jeff, thank you so much for joining us here! Your suggestion on the 'S' on the rapier blade is absolutely not 'too' obvious. I really dont consider anything in that category, as too often the case of not being able to see the forest for the trees comes into play. "...discovery consists in seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought". -Albert Szent-Gyorgyi (1893-1986) While I cannot say this is the case here, I think it is worth considering and definitely think we should review instances of this 'S' occurring on blades and see what can be found. It should be noted that there were prominant Spanish smiths and marks such as 'Sebastian' (which appears singularly on one obviously German blade 17th c. and the 'Sahagun' which also occurs without secondary name). Thank you again Jeff, excellent entry! Let's see what we can find All very best regards, Jim - Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:21 AM.