The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:32 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 07:52 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on.
Jim (Quote)

No, i wasn't correcting you at all ... on the contrary
That was precisely to remind that, the name of Ayala spelt that way, is a sign that the piece, despite its apparent quality, was not his procuction.
Not that the anchor doesn't appear in Spanish swords. I was browsing the Net on Master Ayala and found a very interesting site,
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp
from where i brought the attached illustration, where we can see a brass sail hilt Dragoon sword, made in Barcelona by Magi Closas ( 1760-1780 ). The article author fully characterizes the marks ... the allusion to the King and to the Regiment, Closas punction, as well as the arrow, the symbol of Barcelona dagger smiths Guild since the 17th century, but it pays no attention to the anchor, as if this were a secondary detail, like a decoration. It is yet to be known whether this is an esoteric symbol, a religious one, or just a decoration hybrid.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:33 PM

Old 29th November 2007, 08:11 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

It is my guess it is a religious one from all that I have read since this posting was started. I have few more links to get through and then I shall show several different styles of anchors and crosses that we have all seen and will attach the acompanying texts to further support this.
I have also attached below an excavated rapier with the running wolf symbol and DOMINI that has been covered so far in the discussion. It came out of the Danube many years ago.

regards

Gav
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:33 PM

Old 30th November 2007, 02:10 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Ahah! Fernando..........that makes sense, the misspelling suggests the work of somebody else...i.e. Solingen! I read somewhere also that some of these crafty German workers even produced some less than standard pieces and deliberately placed spurious famed Spanish names on them to discredit the product. That claim seems dubious though, as I have not yet seen any substandard blades from either of these competing markets and frankly by the end of the 16th century, Toledo was little competition as its sword production had diminished dramatically.

Interesting on the arrow of the Barcelona smiths guild. I always wonder how a particular symbol was selected as the mark for each guild or maker. I tried to use that link but didnt find the Closas reference. It is indeed interesting that the anchor is not considered worthy of note.

I think that to determine more on the imbued meaning associated with these particular items of motif, we need to discover consistancies that occur with certain makers blades. Since these characteristically have differences from subtle to pronounced, we can presume symbolism is present, and since religious symbolism is known to often include talismanic esoterica in these times, the meanings can only be imagined. To the uninitiated, these would represent only flourished motif, but to the client who carried the sword with his life in the balance, the deep symbolism was likely pronounced.
I think the anchors, cross and orb were intended to talismanically punctuate and emphasize the marks, names or inscriptions they appear with.

Thank you very much Fernando, excellent post as always!

In the exotic places that those who carried these weapons went with trade and often campaign, the native people became well aware of the deep pride and confidence with which they were regarded. Naturally they presumed that the blades of these weapons would give them equal power in thiers.

What is most interesting is how the commonly reproduced markings on native blades were chosen above others. There were so many markings on many European blades, yet there is such a select group chosen; the sickle marks, the moons, Andrea Ferara, et al. In most cases the blades found with many unusual markings are the European produced blades.

Gav, there you go! Nice photos and very nice rapier. You guys are really putting in terrific examples here! I am really looking forward to the anchors and crosses you describe and as noted, this will help us find some recurrent forms hopefully.
Thank you again for posting this and for helping us with compiling this thread.

With all very best regards,
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:34 PM

Old 30th November 2007, 03:18 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
Here is the article on the sail guard swords with Closas marks.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/pub...Bconvela-2.pdf

And here is one ( of so many) Ayala reference, included in a list of personalities and factories related with white arms ... not only Spanish.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/pub...bliografia.pdf

I hope these are usefull.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:35 PM

Old 30th November 2007, 03:41 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Gavin,
Nice excavated rapier
Say, what would be the word before DOMINI ?
If we consider the proportional space available, the phrase could be ANNO DOMINI, which is a popular Latin word "duet", but not much sensefull as a sentence for a sword ... i don't know. Just a bit of fantasy .
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:36 PM

Old 30th November 2007, 05:02 PM
Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004

Hi Jim,
While Freebooter consolidates the religious basis of the anchor symbol, may i advance a couple scans of Evans book, with references to some usually seen markings, which he presumes to be of cabalistic contents. Eventually the symbol "IN MENE", apparently so usually seen in the XVII-XVIII centuries, is conotated by Portuguese Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BAR�ES, struck on sword of page 47, as a symbol of fear of God.
BTW, if you browse the Net on the subject, these letters are relative to Hebrew mystic symbology.
On the other hand, Juan L. Calvo, the author of the link in posts #78 and #81( Closas, Ayalla, etc ) is of the opinnion that these are marks of a determined unknown factory, which is naturaly wrong.

MENE o MINI: La inscripci�n �IN MENE� o �IN MINI� figura inscrita en hojas de espada forjadas durante el siglo XVIII, tal vez se�alando su producci�n en una determinada �f�brica� que no he conseguido identificar.

All the best
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:37 PM

Old 1st December 2007, 05:13 PM~

Posed by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean .
I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger.
However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard.
Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation?
Fernando
.

18th October 2017, 06:32 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 29th November 2007, 07:52 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you also for correcting the spelling on Aiala, which I was unclear on. Jim (Quote) No, i wasn't correcting you at all ... on the contrary That was precisely to remind that, the name of Ayala spelt that way, is a sign that the piece, despite its apparent quality, was not his procuction. Not that the anchor doesn't appear in Spanish swords. I was browsing the Net on Master Ayala and found a very interesting site, http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp from where i brought the attached illustration, where we can see a brass sail hilt Dragoon sword, made in Barcelona by Magi Closas ( 1760-1780 ). The article author fully characterizes the marks ... the allusion to the King and to the Regiment, Closas punction, as well as the arrow, the symbol of Barcelona dagger smiths Guild since the 17th century, but it pays no attention to the anchor, as if this were a secondary detail, like a decoration. It is yet to be known whether this is an esoteric symbol, a religious one, or just a decoration hybrid. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:06 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:33 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The Anchor Old 29th November 2007, 08:11 PM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 It is my guess it is a religious one from all that I have read since this posting was started. I have few more links to get through and then I shall show several different styles of anchors and crosses that we have all seen and will attach the acompanying texts to further support this. I have also attached below an excavated rapier with the running wolf symbol and DOMINI that has been covered so far in the discussion. It came out of the Danube many years ago. regards Gav . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:08 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:33 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 30th November 2007, 02:10 AM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Ahah! Fernando..........that makes sense, the misspelling suggests the work of somebody else...i.e. Solingen! I read somewhere also that some of these crafty German workers even produced some less than standard pieces and deliberately placed spurious famed Spanish names on them to discredit the product. That claim seems dubious though, as I have not yet seen any substandard blades from either of these competing markets and frankly by the end of the 16th century, Toledo was little competition as its sword production had diminished dramatically. Interesting on the arrow of the Barcelona smiths guild. I always wonder how a particular symbol was selected as the mark for each guild or maker. I tried to use that link but didnt find the Closas reference. It is indeed interesting that the anchor is not considered worthy of note. I think that to determine more on the imbued meaning associated with these particular items of motif, we need to discover consistancies that occur with certain makers blades. Since these characteristically have differences from subtle to pronounced, we can presume symbolism is present, and since religious symbolism is known to often include talismanic esoterica in these times, the meanings can only be imagined. To the uninitiated, these would represent only flourished motif, but to the client who carried the sword with his life in the balance, the deep symbolism was likely pronounced. I think the anchors, cross and orb were intended to talismanically punctuate and emphasize the marks, names or inscriptions they appear with. Thank you very much Fernando, excellent post as always! In the exotic places that those who carried these weapons went with trade and often campaign, the native people became well aware of the deep pride and confidence with which they were regarded. Naturally they presumed that the blades of these weapons would give them equal power in thiers. What is most interesting is how the commonly reproduced markings on native blades were chosen above others. There were so many markings on many European blades, yet there is such a select group chosen; the sickle marks, the moons, Andrea Ferara, et al. In most cases the blades found with many unusual markings are the European produced blades. Gav, there you go! Nice photos and very nice rapier. You guys are really putting in terrific examples here! I am really looking forward to the anchors and crosses you describe and as noted, this will help us find some recurrent forms hopefully. Thank you again for posting this and for helping us with compiling this thread. With all very best regards, Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:09 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:34 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Opening the discussed link ... Old 30th November 2007, 03:18 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, Here is the article on the sail guard swords with Closas marks. http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/pub...Bconvela-2.pdf And here is one ( of so many) Ayala reference, included in a list of personalities and factories related with white arms ... not only Spanish. http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/pub...bliografia.pdf I hope these are usefull. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:12 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:35 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	DOMINI Old 30th November 2007, 03:41 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Gavin, Nice excavated rapier Say, what would be the word before DOMINI ? If we consider the proportional space available, the phrase could be ANNO DOMINI, which is a popular Latin word "duet", but not much sensefull as a sentence for a sword ... i don't know. Just a bit of fantasy . Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 10:58 AM.

18th October 2017, 06:36 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Cabalistic symbols Old 30th November 2007, 05:02 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Hi Jim, While Freebooter consolidates the religious basis of the anchor symbol, may i advance a couple scans of Evans book, with references to some usually seen markings, which he presumes to be of cabalistic contents. Eventually the symbol "IN MENE", apparently so usually seen in the XVII-XVIII centuries, is conotated by Portuguese Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BAR�ES, struck on sword of page 47, as a symbol of fear of God. BTW, if you browse the Net on the subject, these letters are relative to Hebrew mystic symbology. On the other hand, Juan L. Calvo, the author of the link in posts #78 and #81( Closas, Ayalla, etc ) is of the opinnion that these are marks of a determined unknown factory, which is naturaly wrong. MENE o MINI: La inscripci�n �IN MENE� o �IN MINI� figura inscrita en hojas de espada forjadas durante el siglo XVIII, tal vez se�alando su producci�n en una determinada �f�brica� que no he conseguido identificar. All the best Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 10:59 AM.

18th October 2017, 06:37 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Esoteric ... or a make up ? Old 1st December 2007, 05:13 PM~ Posed by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal The problem for the layman in attributing to a determined set of figures an esoteric conotation, is a two ended stick. If you don't pay any notice, you might be missing something valuable, but if you bring the thing to the others attention, and it ends up being a fake or a nonsense , you play the role of you know what i mean . I have posted this dagger in the UBB Forum five years ago. It had no clear classification from the members, as possibly being either a put together piece with a salvaged blade, or hardly a main gauche, maybe even a side arm, and so on. I would go for the ( civilian ) side arm myself, possibly ( possibly ) rehilted, but not certainly "rebladed", as the said looks to me having never being longer or different than how it is now. It has a losangular cross section and measures 14" ( 36 cms. ), quite long for a comon dagger. However this time i show it for the purpose of apreciating the marks struck on both grip and guard. Would you people say this has a mystic flavour, or was only the smith that had these punctions at hand and decided to make his own naive creation? Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 11:00 AM.