The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:25 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 10:37 PM

Posrted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More on the Orb and Cross. This is from Gyngell's Armourers Marks Pg30

Jeff
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:25 PM

Old 26th November 2007, 10:47 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links ...
Jim (Quote)

A great anchor allright, and Jeff has just found out where i got it from .
I have completely forgotten i picked it from this very Forum, it is on Lew's kaskara. I must have saved the picture when i was searching on the anchor symbol, as familiar to the one struck on the sword cane of my posting #58. But you will see this "robbery" was well intentioned. We say over here that you catch a liar faster than you catch a cripple .
Sorry Lew, for the hijacking. But it's all because it's a great anchor.
Fernando
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:26 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 08:32 AM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

I will help regarding this book but I am afraid it will have to wait until the silly season has passed. I will see if I can dig up Mr Evan's email address and perhaps he will have something on file he can share with us all rather than all the scans. I do remember my last correspondence was a few years ago just after he sold his collection in preparation of putting together another book on miniature swords if I remember correctly.

All for now.....a great read so far guys keep is coming...I also want to add there is a running wolf found in a few places on a blade made by Johannis Brach for King George II, it appears in between his first and last name on both sides of the blade in the fullers, there are several other marks being a cross struck 3 times with a letter "S" and unicorn struck twice too. The rest of the blade is etched with a calendar.

Those of you in England may well have seen this sword on display in the tower of London collection....

Regards

Gavin
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:26 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 06:51 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Jeff, thanks again for the additional cross and orbs. I'd like to work some more on these, and it seems that in Wagner, he notes these were used to enclose names, inscriptions etc. by being placed at beginning and end. Perhaps the 'four crosses' were used in the same manner on the nimcha posted.

Fernando, thank you for your gentlemanly concern on what might have been considered infringement, but I think not the case. well handled and I hope we can work more on these 'anchors' which clearly were used considerably on Spanish blades and German made blades purported to be. I am wondering if these appeared on other blades, English, Italian?

Gavin, the sword you mention by Johannes Brach, was Brach one of the Hounslow smiths or was he actually working in Solingen? I am of course very interested in the three crosses and 'S' markings. The calendar would seem to imply this might have been a hunting sword ? as auspicious days (Saints days) were important to observe in hunting etc. at least this is as described in Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons").
I see you also had communications with Mr. Evans as I mentioned I had earlier and I also wonder how he is doing with the miniature weapons, which he was intrigued with when I last heard from himsome years ago. I have sent him an email (which I hope is still correct) and am hoping for his response.

I am wondering if we might start to examine the well known 'sickle' or 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoa, later Styria, Solingen and the Caucasian 'Gurda' blades. Any thoughts on what this paired, toothed or ribbed half circles mark might represent? each of the semi-circles is terminated with three dots typically, the Trinity? the numeric three seems extremely important and consistantly employed in various markings and repitition of them.

On another thread, David has posted a well weathered 'firangi' which he has obtained, which is remarkable in that it is still in original mountings and holds a rapier blade. This is an important item as it illustrates how the markings on these early blades, even rapier blades, are often key in researching many forms of ethnographic weapons.

With all best regards, and thanks for these contribitions guys!
Jim
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:27 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 08:53 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

Hi Jeff,

The paragraph in the "Treasues of the Tower of London", page 51, reads..

A number of old swordsmiths named Johannis Brach are recorded in Solingen at different times. Two other signatures, that of Jan and Arnoldt, are recorded with the unicorn walking along.

As for a hunting sword...maybe, maybe not, it has been shortened at some time in it's life and remains at healthy 41.2" with a blade length of 35.2". It appears though, that he may have used this in his charge at Oudenarde in 1708.
The blade is dated to approx 1700. There is further reference made regarding literature; Duffy & Borg, European swords and daggers in the Tower of London, p33, pl.92a.(IX1243).

Hope this helps some

Also on page 79 of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham's Illustrated catalog of civil war military goods there is a great page of 6 images of Solingen and Damascus unfitted blades that where available to soldiers during the war.

regards

Gavin
.

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:28 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 09:17 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
This is something for you to digest and figure out.
It seems as the anchor symbol appears both as a mark and as a decoration. We can see in Evans work that the anchor was assigned to British cuttler (?) William Justice in 1664, but he also pretends that this symbol, struck in Italian blades, also shown in the book, was merely a decoration. Needless to say we are navigating in strange waters, as his business is bayonets and the makers he quotes are cuttlers ... whatever that means, for the case.
I am posting pictures of an anchor punction on a Tomas Aiala ( not Ayala) sword, which i mentioned the other day, as well as the pages referring Evans material on both anchor mark and decoration.
All the best
Fernando
-

fernando · 18th October 2017, 06:29 PM

Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 PM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
I too think it might just be decoration, here are a few images of a gorgeous blade I saw a few years ago, Spanish, the style was the 1728 cavalry sword pattern but of the highest quality I have ever seen. If you look close at the first image you will see it is not symetrical, there is a cirle on one side of the base of the anchor and a cresent the other, anchor aside, does this represent day and night?

Great work Fernando.

regards

Gavin
.

18th October 2017, 06:25 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 10:37 PM Posrted by: Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada More on the Orb and Cross. This is from Gyngell's Armourers Marks Pg30 Jeff . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:51 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:25 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 26th November 2007, 10:47 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Quote: Originally Posted by Jim McDougall ... Great anchor Fernando, and thanks Jeff for more great links ... Jim (Quote) A great anchor allright, and Jeff has just found out where i got it from . I have completely forgotten i picked it from this very Forum, it is on Lew's kaskara. I must have saved the picture when i was searching on the anchor symbol, as familiar to the one struck on the sword cane of my posting #58. But you will see this "robbery" was well intentioned. We say over here that you catch a liar faster than you catch a cripple . Sorry Lew, for the hijacking. But it's all because it's a great anchor. Fernando . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:52 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:26 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Plug Bayonets Old 28th November 2007, 08:32 AM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 I will help regarding this book but I am afraid it will have to wait until the silly season has passed. I will see if I can dig up Mr Evan's email address and perhaps he will have something on file he can share with us all rather than all the scans. I do remember my last correspondence was a few years ago just after he sold his collection in preparation of putting together another book on miniature swords if I remember correctly. All for now.....a great read so far guys keep is coming...I also want to add there is a running wolf found in a few places on a blade made by Johannis Brach for King George II, it appears in between his first and last name on both sides of the blade in the fullers, there are several other marks being a cross struck 3 times with a letter "S" and unicorn struck twice too. The rest of the blade is etched with a calendar. Those of you in England may well have seen this sword on display in the tower of London collection.... Regards Gavin . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:53 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:26 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 28th November 2007, 06:51 PM Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Jeff, thanks again for the additional cross and orbs. I'd like to work some more on these, and it seems that in Wagner, he notes these were used to enclose names, inscriptions etc. by being placed at beginning and end. Perhaps the 'four crosses' were used in the same manner on the nimcha posted. Fernando, thank you for your gentlemanly concern on what might have been considered infringement, but I think not the case. well handled and I hope we can work more on these 'anchors' which clearly were used considerably on Spanish blades and German made blades purported to be. I am wondering if these appeared on other blades, English, Italian? Gavin, the sword you mention by Johannes Brach, was Brach one of the Hounslow smiths or was he actually working in Solingen? I am of course very interested in the three crosses and 'S' markings. The calendar would seem to imply this might have been a hunting sword ? as auspicious days (Saints days) were important to observe in hunting etc. at least this is as described in Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons"). I see you also had communications with Mr. Evans as I mentioned I had earlier and I also wonder how he is doing with the miniature weapons, which he was intrigued with when I last heard from himsome years ago. I have sent him an email (which I hope is still correct) and am hoping for his response. I am wondering if we might start to examine the well known 'sickle' or 'eyelash' markings associated with Genoa, later Styria, Solingen and the Caucasian 'Gurda' blades. Any thoughts on what this paired, toothed or ribbed half circles mark might represent? each of the semi-circles is terminated with three dots typically, the Trinity? the numeric three seems extremely important and consistantly employed in various markings and repitition of them. On another thread, David has posted a well weathered 'firangi' which he has obtained, which is remarkable in that it is still in original mountings and holds a rapier blade. This is an important item as it illustrates how the markings on these early blades, even rapier blades, are often key in researching many forms of ethnographic weapons. With all best regards, and thanks for these contribitions guys! Jim . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:54 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:28 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Still with the anchor Old 28th November 2007, 09:17 PM Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi Jim, This is something for you to digest and figure out. It seems as the anchor symbol appears both as a mark and as a decoration. We can see in Evans work that the anchor was assigned to British cuttler (?) William Justice in 1664, but he also pretends that this symbol, struck in Italian blades, also shown in the book, was merely a decoration. Needless to say we are navigating in strange waters, as his business is bayonets and the makers he quotes are cuttlers ... whatever that means, for the case. I am posting pictures of an anchor punction on a Tomas Aiala ( not Ayala) sword, which i mentioned the other day, as well as the pages referring Evans material on both anchor mark and decoration. All the best Fernando - Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:58 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:27 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Johannis Brach Old 28th November 2007, 08:53 PM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Hi Jeff, The paragraph in the "Treasues of the Tower of London", page 51, reads.. A number of old swordsmiths named Johannis Brach are recorded in Solingen at different times. Two other signatures, that of Jan and Arnoldt, are recorded with the unicorn walking along. As for a hunting sword...maybe, maybe not, it has been shortened at some time in it's life and remains at healthy 41.2" with a blade length of 35.2". It appears though, that he may have used this in his charge at Oudenarde in 1708. The blade is dated to approx 1700. There is further reference made regarding literature; Duffy & Borg, European swords and daggers in the Tower of London, p33, pl.92a.(IX1243). Hope this helps some Also on page 79 of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham's Illustrated catalog of civil war military goods there is a great page of 6 images of Solingen and Damascus unfitted blades that where available to soldiers during the war. regards Gavin . Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 09:55 PM.

18th October 2017, 06:29 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Anchor Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 PM Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 I too think it might just be decoration, here are a few images of a gorgeous blade I saw a few years ago, Spanish, the style was the 1728 cavalry sword pattern but of the highest quality I have ever seen. If you look close at the first image you will see it is not symetrical, there is a cirle on one side of the base of the anchor and a cresent the other, anchor aside, does this represent day and night? Great work Fernando. regards Gavin . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 19th October 2017 at 10:00 PM.