Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 16th October 2017, 11:23 PM

There is a vexing question that I am struggling with - hence my recent silence - and that is simply this: did they intend to produce hollow blades, then concentrate on military supply; or was it a deliberate façade from the start?
I am presently studying the overall political situation in Britain from 1680 onwards in the hope it might shed some light on why they began the project in the first place.
There were certainly many petitions and requests being bandied about in the mid 1600s regarding manufacturing hollow blades; how did any of them intend to achieve a viable output without the grinding machine? They were in no better a position in Hounslow at the time, yet many attempts were made to set up a hollow blade production facility there. Hmmm.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2017, 01:45 AM

Hey Keith,
These are some vexing questions indeed, and now that you and Ibrahiim are 'on the case' I think we can get somewhere. Despite the apparent lack of community interest on this topic here, it seems that has been an inherent posture in the arms community at large for too many years. Little has been really done on this for 70+ years beyond simply conveying old material over again.

In my opinion, and writing off the cuff here, the 'Hollow Sword Co.' was created, more as a front for banking enterprises and real estate speculation. There was a good degree of interest in the developing new forms of rapier blades and fencing forms, which I think was a genuine interest at first. The Hounslow enterprise had ended after the end of the civil wars, and it seems the blade production had gone to London/Birmingham. However, these centers were plagued with notably poorly regarded blade quality.
The descendants of some of the Hounslow families were recruited to establish facilities at Shotley Bridge, where the Derwent river and standing grist mills could be converted to blade producing mills.

Under the guise of this, the Hollow Blade Co. began, and I believe were indeed intending to produce such rapier blades, however geopolitical unrest both overseas and with the Jacobite issues resulted in the clear need for supplies of military weapons. I think that there was actual production in degree, but that much of the volume was 'salted' with imported blades from Germany via Holland. Much of this stock coming in seems represented by the shipment Mohll was caught with, a number of such blades, and also of hangers.

The reason the banking set up was contrived was that the Bank of England held a monopoly on banking and loans etc. The syndicated speculation in real estate in trade in the South Seas (South America) and confiscated Irish properties in the political troubles of the times, was filtered through the 'sword company'.
The actual mills in my understanding used grindstones converted from existing ones there already. In the lists of Shotley Bridge, many of the names show them as 'grinders' as well as proprietors. There does seem to have been actual production in addition to the furbishing of imported or 'salted' products.

While I have presumed that some of the blades were marked with a 'fox' instead of the German wolf of Solingen products, I have seen the German wolf next to SHOTLEY BRIDG on blades. I think this may be a mix due to the combined German and English workers there so perhaps both existed, just as variants will.

While sword blade production waned with the advent of Birmingham and London in mid 18th century, I believe Shotley probably continued with cutlery and such sundry products into the final days in the 19th c,
Whether some sword blades were either produced or fitted there in these later times is hard to say. It does not seem official records recognize Shotley as an entity active in such enterprise so possibly other business records and ledgers might have them showing what their function was.

Most of this is simply reiterating what Ibrahiim has explained in much greater detail in the previous post.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th October 2017, 01:22 PM

Salaam Jim,

My concern about the Shotley Bridge factory is that no blade appears to exist from there with a Fox (bushy tail variety) So far as l know it was a Samuel Harvey Mark from Birmingham only.

Shotley only appears to have used the Running Wolf. The Passau stick version.

Regarding Jacobite weapons...The Shotley Swordmakers would all have been arrested and probably executed had they provided blades to the Jacobite cause marked SHOTLEY BRIDGE. Newcastle was heavily garrisoned and immediate action would have ended the Derwent production.

Mohl being in the know... purchased cheap unfinished military blades in Solingen for refining at Shotley and we see grinders and engraver employed there...probably linked to London Gentlemens Outfitters providing swords to rich city men. MOHLL was key to all of that.

Great pressure was being encountered with the demise of ordinary blades and the Solingen mass production of Colichemarde ..a term we do not hear in Shotley evidence...We only hear the term Hollow Blades and it is unclear what they meant by that phrase. lf there were swords with tri angular blade form at Shotley we have no examples...So as to escape this timewarp...and stay modern in the industry specialists simply left: l think this was an added reason the unit dwindled and coincided with the rise to power in England of German George.

The real reason, however, may well have been the corrupt development around the skulduggery of The Hollow Sword Co. This unsavoury lot were up to their necks in the dirty business of South Sea Co activity and the rich pickings of slavery..No doubt also the lucrative international trade in Ivory for billiard ball and piano keys !...

As you say the idea was to supplant the Bank of England thus this was a huge enterprise..so when it collapsed the repercussions must have also dislocated Shotley Bridge activity and the Blade makers would have started to look elsewhere...

A short resurgence in flat blades was followed by demise but eventually Birmingham and Germany pulled most of the workers away...Cutlery may have only served as a brief respite but the end of the Napoleonic wars may have finally put a lid on Shotley Bridge production.

Has anyone seen a Colichimarde machine...? I am intrigued to see what that looked like.

urbanspaceman · 17th October 2017, 06:32 PM

I am in complete agreement Ibrahiim: all blades going for military use, regardless of politics or religion, would not have been marked at all.
I need to find out why the two Londoners (Parsons and Justice), half of the original syndicate of four, were involved in an armoury developed up North. As I said, there were numerous previous attempts to set up a hollow blade manufactory both in London and Hounslow.
The syndicate existed prior to 1685: Charles II helped these two Londoners, along with Sanford from Newcastle (and probably Carnforth), to bring Henekels and Hoppe from Oxford, and Dell from Hounslow, up to SB. This syndicate of four (Dell had become one of them) then brought the 19 families over at James II's behest in '87. That same year they petitioned the king to grant them exclusive right to produce hollow blades using a new milling machine; but as far as James II was concerned they were not brought over to produce hollow blades – that had been the wish of Charles II – James wanted broadswords for his ever growing standing army: granted by parliament and camped on Hounslow Heath. In fact, the exclusive right to make hollow blades was never actually signed by King James.
Regardless of that, work had already begun at SB, and the new arrivals were bound by a six year contract to the syndicate, which eventually (in '88) officially leased land from William Johnson, who owned the estate and had previously allowed the adaption of his corn-mill there to produce blades; hence the abandoned giant corn mill-stone Ibrahiim. What we have to remember is that those two Germans - Henekels and Hoppe - had previously moved from Hounslow to Oxford and began work on behalf of the king using a converted corn-mill, which is essentially what they did at SB. I think the new arrivals spent their first year building homes and getting established, alongside helping out at the new works.
King William 1st finally granted the charter to a reformed syndicate in 1691, and the Hollow Sword Blade Company was certified. At least six years since the original syndicate was formed, and with new syndicate member Peter Reneau now in charge at SB. That same year, Mohll, Schimmelbush, Groats, Krantz and Voes rented a premises in SB and set up a grinding, polishing and finishing mill. Adam Ohlig (the blade forger) built Cutler's Hall; and John Sanford (previously of the syndicate) leased a corn-mill at Lintzford (up-river from SB and near Blackhall) to make blades.
At this point I suspect Sir Stephen Evance and his new partners had begun to realise the potential of this newly formed company; because despite all things being very well established, there appears to have been no attempt to employ a hollows grinding machine. I think it was better to let SB produce common or garden blades and have the specialist blades smuggled in from Solingen. I am certain that the great political weight exerted by this new syndicate/company was the reason Mohll was released without charge despite being found red-handed smuggling blades on a Jacobite ship.

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2017, 06:45 PM

This is brilliant insight guys! and it is starting to really make sense with these well thought out assessments. When I first heard of all these terms and names so many years ago, it was so complicated I honestly could never get a foothold in it. Thanks to you two, the puzzle pieces begin to fit.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th October 2017, 07:08 PM

and John Sanford (previously of the syndicate) leased a corn-mill at Lintzford (up-river from SB and near Blackhall) to make blades.

Kieth.. Lintzford is down stream of Shotley Bridge.. as is Blackhall Mill...See https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/get...-county-durham

Great research so far... It wouldn't surprise me if Blackbeard the Pirate turned up next !!

Has anyone a copy of what a Hollow Sword making machine looked like?

I have to agree with page 34 on https://oldswords.com/articles/Small...ibles-v1i1.pdf

and the conclusion that since the Shotley Makers never became millionaires because they were unable to produce Colichemerde and were thus relegated to flat, military, far cheaper blades...and anyway swords were either going out of fashion because of gunpowder weapons and the general decline of wars in Europe requiring such blades...plus the agonising time needed to even turn out one Colichemarde by hand was simply not viable...

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2017, 08:06 PM

An interesting note , the colichemarde apparently only was in favor in the civilian sector for a short time, yet it remained a favorite for military officers until nearly the end of the 18th c.

16th October 2017, 11:23 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 732	duplicitous beginnings There is a vexing question that I am struggling with - hence my recent silence - and that is simply this: did they intend to produce hollow blades, then concentrate on military supply; or was it a deliberate façade from the start? I am presently studying the overall political situation in Britain from 1680 onwards in the hope it might shed some light on why they began the project in the first place. There were certainly many petitions and requests being bandied about in the mid 1600s regarding manufacturing hollow blades; how did any of them intend to achieve a viable output without the grinding machine? They were in no better a position in Hounslow at the time, yet many attempts were made to set up a hollow blade production facility there. Hmmm.

17th October 2017, 07:08 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	and John Sanford (previously of the syndicate) leased a corn-mill at Lintzford (up-river from SB and near Blackhall) to make blades. Kieth.. Lintzford is down stream of Shotley Bridge.. as is Blackhall Mill...See https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/get...-county-durham Great research so far... It wouldn't surprise me if Blackbeard the Pirate turned up next !! Has anyone a copy of what a Hollow Sword making machine looked like? I have to agree with page 34 on https://oldswords.com/articles/Small...ibles-v1i1.pdf and the conclusion that since the Shotley Makers never became millionaires because they were unable to produce Colichemerde and were thus relegated to flat, military, far cheaper blades...and anyway swords were either going out of fashion because of gunpowder weapons and the general decline of wars in Europe requiring such blades...plus the agonising time needed to even turn out one Colichemarde by hand was simply not viable... Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th October 2017 at 08:34 PM.

17th October 2017, 01:45 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,743	Hey Keith, These are some vexing questions indeed, and now that you and Ibrahiim are 'on the case' I think we can get somewhere. Despite the apparent lack of community interest on this topic here, it seems that has been an inherent posture in the arms community at large for too many years. Little has been really done on this for 70+ years beyond simply conveying old material over again. In my opinion, and writing off the cuff here, the 'Hollow Sword Co.' was created, more as a front for banking enterprises and real estate speculation. There was a good degree of interest in the developing new forms of rapier blades and fencing forms, which I think was a genuine interest at first. The Hounslow enterprise had ended after the end of the civil wars, and it seems the blade production had gone to London/Birmingham. However, these centers were plagued with notably poorly regarded blade quality. The descendants of some of the Hounslow families were recruited to establish facilities at Shotley Bridge, where the Derwent river and standing grist mills could be converted to blade producing mills. Under the guise of this, the Hollow Blade Co. began, and I believe were indeed intending to produce such rapier blades, however geopolitical unrest both overseas and with the Jacobite issues resulted in the clear need for supplies of military weapons. I think that there was actual production in degree, but that much of the volume was 'salted' with imported blades from Germany via Holland. Much of this stock coming in seems represented by the shipment Mohll was caught with, a number of such blades, and also of hangers. The reason the banking set up was contrived was that the Bank of England held a monopoly on banking and loans etc. The syndicated speculation in real estate in trade in the South Seas (South America) and confiscated Irish properties in the political troubles of the times, was filtered through the 'sword company'. The actual mills in my understanding used grindstones converted from existing ones there already. In the lists of Shotley Bridge, many of the names show them as 'grinders' as well as proprietors. There does seem to have been actual production in addition to the furbishing of imported or 'salted' products. While I have presumed that some of the blades were marked with a 'fox' instead of the German wolf of Solingen products, I have seen the German wolf next to SHOTLEY BRIDG on blades. I think this may be a mix due to the combined German and English workers there so perhaps both existed, just as variants will. While sword blade production waned with the advent of Birmingham and London in mid 18th century, I believe Shotley probably continued with cutlery and such sundry products into the final days in the 19th c, Whether some sword blades were either produced or fitted there in these later times is hard to say. It does not seem official records recognize Shotley as an entity active in such enterprise so possibly other business records and ledgers might have them showing what their function was. Most of this is simply reiterating what Ibrahiim has explained in much greater detail in the previous post.

17th October 2017, 01:22 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaam Jim, My concern about the Shotley Bridge factory is that no blade appears to exist from there with a Fox (bushy tail variety) So far as l know it was a Samuel Harvey Mark from Birmingham only. Shotley only appears to have used the Running Wolf. The Passau stick version. Regarding Jacobite weapons...The Shotley Swordmakers would all have been arrested and probably executed had they provided blades to the Jacobite cause marked SHOTLEY BRIDGE. Newcastle was heavily garrisoned and immediate action would have ended the Derwent production. Mohl being in the know... purchased cheap unfinished military blades in Solingen for refining at Shotley and we see grinders and engraver employed there...probably linked to London Gentlemens Outfitters providing swords to rich city men. MOHLL was key to all of that. Great pressure was being encountered with the demise of ordinary blades and the Solingen mass production of Colichemarde ..a term we do not hear in Shotley evidence...We only hear the term Hollow Blades and it is unclear what they meant by that phrase. lf there were swords with tri angular blade form at Shotley we have no examples...So as to escape this timewarp...and stay modern in the industry specialists simply left: l think this was an added reason the unit dwindled and coincided with the rise to power in England of German George. The real reason, however, may well have been the corrupt development around the skulduggery of The Hollow Sword Co. This unsavoury lot were up to their necks in the dirty business of South Sea Co activity and the rich pickings of slavery..No doubt also the lucrative international trade in Ivory for billiard ball and piano keys !... As you say the idea was to supplant the Bank of England thus this was a huge enterprise..so when it collapsed the repercussions must have also dislocated Shotley Bridge activity and the Blade makers would have started to look elsewhere... A short resurgence in flat blades was followed by demise but eventually Birmingham and Germany pulled most of the workers away...Cutlery may have only served as a brief respite but the end of the Napoleonic wars may have finally put a lid on Shotley Bridge production. Has anyone seen a Colichimarde machine...? I am intrigued to see what that looked like.

17th October 2017, 06:32 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 732	I am in complete agreement Ibrahiim: all blades going for military use, regardless of politics or religion, would not have been marked at all. I need to find out why the two Londoners (Parsons and Justice), half of the original syndicate of four, were involved in an armoury developed up North. As I said, there were numerous previous attempts to set up a hollow blade manufactory both in London and Hounslow. The syndicate existed prior to 1685: Charles II helped these two Londoners, along with Sanford from Newcastle (and probably Carnforth), to bring Henekels and Hoppe from Oxford, and Dell from Hounslow, up to SB. This syndicate of four (Dell had become one of them) then brought the 19 families over at James II's behest in '87. That same year they petitioned the king to grant them exclusive right to produce hollow blades using a new milling machine; but as far as James II was concerned they were not brought over to produce hollow blades – that had been the wish of Charles II – James wanted broadswords for his ever growing standing army: granted by parliament and camped on Hounslow Heath. In fact, the exclusive right to make hollow blades was never actually signed by King James. Regardless of that, work had already begun at SB, and the new arrivals were bound by a six year contract to the syndicate, which eventually (in '88) officially leased land from William Johnson, who owned the estate and had previously allowed the adaption of his corn-mill there to produce blades; hence the abandoned giant corn mill-stone Ibrahiim. What we have to remember is that those two Germans - Henekels and Hoppe - had previously moved from Hounslow to Oxford and began work on behalf of the king using a converted corn-mill, which is essentially what they did at SB. I think the new arrivals spent their first year building homes and getting established, alongside helping out at the new works. King William 1st finally granted the charter to a reformed syndicate in 1691, and the Hollow Sword Blade Company was certified. At least six years since the original syndicate was formed, and with new syndicate member Peter Reneau now in charge at SB. That same year, Mohll, Schimmelbush, Groats, Krantz and Voes rented a premises in SB and set up a grinding, polishing and finishing mill. Adam Ohlig (the blade forger) built Cutler's Hall; and John Sanford (previously of the syndicate) leased a corn-mill at Lintzford (up-river from SB and near Blackhall) to make blades. At this point I suspect Sir Stephen Evance and his new partners had begun to realise the potential of this newly formed company; because despite all things being very well established, there appears to have been no attempt to employ a hollows grinding machine. I think it was better to let SB produce common or garden blades and have the specialist blades smuggled in from Solingen. I am certain that the great political weight exerted by this new syndicate/company was the reason Mohll was released without charge despite being found red-handed smuggling blades on a Jacobite ship.

17th October 2017, 06:45 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,743	This is brilliant insight guys! and it is starting to really make sense with these well thought out assessments. When I first heard of all these terms and names so many years ago, it was so complicated I honestly could never get a foothold in it. Thanks to you two, the puzzle pieces begin to fit.

17th October 2017, 08:06 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,743	An interesting note , the colichemarde apparently only was in favor in the civilian sector for a short time, yet it remained a favorite for military officers until nearly the end of the 18th c.