Child Keris

A. G. Maisey · 26th September 2017, 10:49 PM

I am in agreement with David's comments.

My following remarks apply only to Jawa, that is, The Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa.

The word "patrem" is found in Old Javanese, it comes from the Sanscrit root "pattra", sometimes spelt "patra". In Sanscrit "patra" or "pattra" means the wing or feather of a bird.

In Old Javanese this word "pattra" has a number of meanings, and can also form a part of another word, and the same is true of the Sanscrit root. However, the word "patrem" in Old Javanese refers to the blade of a sword, knife, dagger or keris of small size that is often, but not always, used by a woman.

In Modern Javanese the meaning is similar to the meaning in Old Javanese , but that meaning is not as widely applied as in OJ , also the distinction between the complete implement and the blade only of the implement is not made, thus in MJ a patrem is to be understood as a small keris or dagger (cunderik/cundrik).

However, notwithstanding these academic definitions, in common usage in Central Jawa, the patrem is understood to be a woman's keris, and the reason that many high ranking women attached to the kraton carried such a keris was to indicate their readiness to commit suicide in the event that the kraton was over-run by an enemy.

In Javanese traditional thought a woman has no life that is not a part of her husband's life, thus it is desirable that a woman should immediately follow her husband in death, and it is unthinkable that a woman could accept violation by another man whilst her husband is still alive.

This of course is the ideal, the reality was and is somewhat different, but the patrem remains as a symbolic indicator of the ideal.

In respect of the size of a Javanese keris, the blade should be made to reflect both physical size and societal status of the owner, and the dress must be made to reflect these attributes.

Johan van Zyl · 29th September 2017, 09:15 AM

I would love to participate in this thread, even though I am not a boffin in terms of keris. My take on the handle is that it was a good, proper Javanese ukiran before it became thoroughly worn down.

Why has nobody suggested that the blade looks the way it looks because of repeated and prolonged warangan treatment? It could have lost some of its length, too. If my wild opinion is correct, it should explain everything, and there should not be reason to keep wondering if this keris is patrem.

Just my half-cent's worth!
Regards
Johan

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2017, 09:56 AM

Johan, the hilt of this keris is simply very low quality work, it approximates a Jogja tunggak semi hilt, it is not worn down, just not much good to begin with.

Yes, the blade does appear to be old, yes, it might have lost some length due to age, but what we have in front of us is as it is now. It was never of much quality even when new, and and the dress it has been put into doesn't do it any favours.

I don't really care about what name anybody wants to put on it, call it a patrem if you will, call it a cunderik, call it a curigo, when all is said and done, it is a keris. Put it in a $2000 Solo ladrang and call it a wangkingan, its still a keris.

Frankly, if it was mine I'd re-dress it in some halfway respectable sandang walikat, so that in the future, whoever gets it next might feel inclined to hang on to it, rather than use for a packing piece, or recycle it as washers.

The thing is this --- at least in my eyes it is --- this is a keris that at one time somebody put time and effort into making. It might well have been made in a village, and made to the order of somebody who could not afford the work of an empu or a pande keris, so he just went along to the local smith.

The bloke who ordered it was proud of what he had when he got it, the maker had done the best he could. Over time it deteriorated and nobody respected the effort nor the intent that had gone into its creation. It deserves another chance. Keris are living links to the past, and they were not all objects of art made for royalty, some were simple representations of what simple people believed were keris and what they could afford.

We need to respect those who have gone before us, and part of that respect is the preservation of cultural belief. There is far, far too much focus in the entire keris world on the beauty of major works of art. The keris is deeply embedded in the culture that gave it birth, understanding both the culture and the keris involves more than the superficial appreciation of art.

In very simple terms we cannot hope to understand the Javanese keris unless we can understand the way in which Javanese people who observe the ways handed down to them by their forebears, see the world. This humble little keris was once alive, and should be given the chance to live again.

Johan van Zyl · 30th September 2017, 09:30 AM

Good reasoning, Allan, thank you. Of course, what you say goes for many other antique traditional edged weapons. As an example I offer the kukri.

On a light-hearted note: your use of the word "bloke" is a give-away for "down under". Here where I live we don't have "chaps", but we do have "ouks" and "boyties".

Regards
Johan

A. G. Maisey · 30th September 2017, 12:04 PM

Johan, with my sincere apologies, a khukri is a tool/weapon.

A keris is something just a little bit different to that.

Johan van Zyl · 1st October 2017, 12:30 PM

Without a doubt the kukri and the keris are not equals, and nobody has suggested that. But consensus seems to have it that a keris, like a kukri, is also a weapon, besides being much more than that. The kukri is an excellent tool, as you know, as well as a weapon that has seen concerted wartime as well as "private" use. So what I have gleaned from much reading and discussing is that the olden-day Nepalese had at least some of the religious esteem and reverence of the kukri when using it, as had the Javanese and other groups for the keris. At least you must admit there are some similar points of comparison between the two....?

I fully respect and acknowledge your stand on the keris, and so what I am merely trying to say is that collectors of other traditional icons have through their research efforts uncovered/developed similar masses of knowledge pertaining to those items.

So without arguing with you, I still state my point of view.

A. G. Maisey · 1st October 2017, 09:34 PM

Johan, you will get no arguments from me when it comes to the keris.

You may, or may not get discussion, but not argument.

In this particular case I prefer not to get into discussion in respect of the characteristics of khukris when compared to keris, for the very simple reason that I have very minimal knowledge of the cultural base of the khukri.

26th September 2017, 10:49 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I am in agreement with David's comments. My following remarks apply only to Jawa, that is, The Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa. The word "patrem" is found in Old Javanese, it comes from the Sanscrit root "pattra", sometimes spelt "patra". In Sanscrit "patra" or "pattra" means the wing or feather of a bird. In Old Javanese this word "pattra" has a number of meanings, and can also form a part of another word, and the same is true of the Sanscrit root. However, the word "patrem" in Old Javanese refers to the blade of a sword, knife, dagger or keris of small size that is often, but not always, used by a woman. In Modern Javanese the meaning is similar to the meaning in Old Javanese , but that meaning is not as widely applied as in OJ , also the distinction between the complete implement and the blade only of the implement is not made, thus in MJ a patrem is to be understood as a small keris or dagger (cunderik/cundrik). However, notwithstanding these academic definitions, in common usage in Central Jawa, the patrem is understood to be a woman's keris, and the reason that many high ranking women attached to the kraton carried such a keris was to indicate their readiness to commit suicide in the event that the kraton was over-run by an enemy. In Javanese traditional thought a woman has no life that is not a part of her husband's life, thus it is desirable that a woman should immediately follow her husband in death, and it is unthinkable that a woman could accept violation by another man whilst her husband is still alive. This of course is the ideal, the reality was and is somewhat different, but the patrem remains as a symbolic indicator of the ideal. In respect of the size of a Javanese keris, the blade should be made to reflect both physical size and societal status of the owner, and the dress must be made to reflect these attributes.

29th September 2017, 09:15 AM	#2
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	I would love to participate in this thread, even though I am not a boffin in terms of keris. My take on the handle is that it was a good, proper Javanese ukiran before it became thoroughly worn down. Why has nobody suggested that the blade looks the way it looks because of repeated and prolonged warangan treatment? It could have lost some of its length, too. If my wild opinion is correct, it should explain everything, and there should not be reason to keep wondering if this keris is patrem. Just my half-cent's worth! Regards Johan

29th September 2017, 09:56 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Johan, the hilt of this keris is simply very low quality work, it approximates a Jogja tunggak semi hilt, it is not worn down, just not much good to begin with. Yes, the blade does appear to be old, yes, it might have lost some length due to age, but what we have in front of us is as it is now. It was never of much quality even when new, and and the dress it has been put into doesn't do it any favours. I don't really care about what name anybody wants to put on it, call it a patrem if you will, call it a cunderik, call it a curigo, when all is said and done, it is a keris. Put it in a $2000 Solo ladrang and call it a wangkingan, its still a keris. Frankly, if it was mine I'd re-dress it in some halfway respectable sandang walikat, so that in the future, whoever gets it next might feel inclined to hang on to it, rather than use for a packing piece, or recycle it as washers. The thing is this --- at least in my eyes it is --- this is a keris that at one time somebody put time and effort into making. It might well have been made in a village, and made to the order of somebody who could not afford the work of an empu or a pande keris, so he just went along to the local smith. The bloke who ordered it was proud of what he had when he got it, the maker had done the best he could. Over time it deteriorated and nobody respected the effort nor the intent that had gone into its creation. It deserves another chance. Keris are living links to the past, and they were not all objects of art made for royalty, some were simple representations of what simple people believed were keris and what they could afford. We need to respect those who have gone before us, and part of that respect is the preservation of cultural belief. There is far, far too much focus in the entire keris world on the beauty of major works of art. The keris is deeply embedded in the culture that gave it birth, understanding both the culture and the keris involves more than the superficial appreciation of art. In very simple terms we cannot hope to understand the Javanese keris unless we can understand the way in which Javanese people who observe the ways handed down to them by their forebears, see the world. This humble little keris was once alive, and should be given the chance to live again.

30th September 2017, 09:30 AM	#4
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Good reasoning, Allan, thank you. Of course, what you say goes for many other antique traditional edged weapons. As an example I offer the kukri. On a light-hearted note: your use of the word "bloke" is a give-away for "down under". Here where I live we don't have "chaps", but we do have "ouks" and "boyties". Regards Johan

30th September 2017, 12:04 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Johan, with my sincere apologies, a khukri is a tool/weapon. A keris is something just a little bit different to that.

1st October 2017, 12:30 PM	#6
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Without a doubt the kukri and the keris are not equals, and nobody has suggested that. But consensus seems to have it that a keris, like a kukri, is also a weapon, besides being much more than that. The kukri is an excellent tool, as you know, as well as a weapon that has seen concerted wartime as well as "private" use. So what I have gleaned from much reading and discussing is that the olden-day Nepalese had at least some of the religious esteem and reverence of the kukri when using it, as had the Javanese and other groups for the keris. At least you must admit there are some similar points of comparison between the two....? I fully respect and acknowledge your stand on the keris, and so what I am merely trying to say is that collectors of other traditional icons have through their research efforts uncovered/developed similar masses of knowledge pertaining to those items. So without arguing with you, I still state my point of view.

1st October 2017, 09:34 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Johan, you will get no arguments from me when it comes to the keris. You may, or may not get discussion, but not argument. In this particular case I prefer not to get into discussion in respect of the characteristics of khukris when compared to keris, for the very simple reason that I have very minimal knowledge of the cultural base of the khukri.