What a history

mariusgmioc · 21st September 2017, 07:08 AM

The history is fascinating but the dagger doesn't appear to live to it.

I find extremely strange that a Japanese shogun will present a foreign dignitary with an Indian dagger.

Why not a Katana or a Tanto. Why not a Japanese fan with cranes a Mt. Fuji, why not some Japanese Maki-e or some Satsuma/Arita/Kutani ceramics?

Japanese are deservingly proud of their arts and crafts, so again, why present a foreign dignitary with an Indian dagger?!

ALEX · 21st September 2017, 10:34 AM

Considering a combination of an item and provenance, not history alone, is a proper approach. This particular item calls into question the story as a whole. Firstly, it is an Indian Mughal style, but was it made in India? Could it be made in Japan, which could explain anomalies from traditional Indian Mughal craftsmanship? Secondly, and as noted by others, the integrity and workmanship of the dagger and the case is questionable for supposedly high status item. The theory of put-together item, and the provenance, is also quite plausible, considering all the above and the Italian auction houses reputation... there's a meat cleaver being pitched as rare important executioners sword by one of them... also hope I made no offence sharing this.
The auction's description about a tassel being "definitely added on shogun order" falls right in with the rest of the story... the provenance based on a small porcelain ball and carved characters on the wooden box.
This well could be as claimed, and seems like those who bid on it thought as such. the opinion expressed is strictly personal.
Also, below is an image with the blade shown.

mariusgmioc · 21st September 2017, 06:39 PM

Hi Alex,
It is an Indian dagger all right. I don't discern any Japanese style/influence. Not even the small painted ball (which looks more Chinese to me).

I also got asimilar dagger but without such a history... and price tag. The red stones are rubies, the orange, agathes and the green... glass. For my knife, the ruby eyes are mounted in gold... while for the "shogunal gift" ... I'm not so sure...

estcrh · 21st September 2017, 06:50 PM

Someone believed the story. No close ups of the blade and copper kundan work? Maybe it was an early Chinese knock off of an Indian khanjar!! Has anyone here seen an Indian scabbard with jade on it like this one?

Gustav · 21st September 2017, 07:24 PM

The scabbard looks like Ottoman work, Turkish "rococo" (but of quite pedestrian quality). There are two daggers in Hale's book, p. 78, with similar jade (?) parts on scabbard.

The smaller Kanji on the box look like carved by a mentally disabled person by Japanese standards. There is no chance such writing could appear on a middle-19th cent. governments gift.

ALEX · 21st September 2017, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hi Alex,
It is an Indian dagger all right. I don't discern any Japanese style/influence...

Yes, it is certainly Indian dagger, not Japanese in neither style nor influence. But was it (entirely) made in India? Is it original... or Mughal style dagger made elsewhere like in Japan, China, etc.? Also, is it 19thC work really?
Your dagger looks more Indian. The eyes do look proper kundan, although the rest is not kundan as I am sure you know.

estcrh · 21st September 2017, 08:13 PM

Looks like there was originally gold on top of the copper.

ALEX · 21st September 2017, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Looks like there was originally gold on top of the copper.

Nice close-up. Looks like it was gilded copper kundan. The exposed carving on the ridge looks clean, even and uniform, almost as machine made., does not look 19thC work.

mariusgmioc · 22nd September 2017, 07:35 AM

I find it strange that the stones don't appear to be gems but coloured glass. But the photos can be deceiving.

21st September 2017, 07:08 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	The history is fascinating but the dagger doesn't appear to live to it. I find extremely strange that a Japanese shogun will present a foreign dignitary with an Indian dagger. Why not a Katana or a Tanto. Why not a Japanese fan with cranes a Mt. Fuji, why not some Japanese Maki-e or some Satsuma/Arita/Kutani ceramics? Japanese are deservingly proud of their arts and crafts, so again, why present a foreign dignitary with an Indian dagger?! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st September 2017 at 06:37 PM.

21st September 2017, 10:34 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Considering a combination of an item and provenance, not history alone, is a proper approach. This particular item calls into question the story as a whole. Firstly, it is an Indian Mughal style, but was it made in India? Could it be made in Japan, which could explain anomalies from traditional Indian Mughal craftsmanship? Secondly, and as noted by others, the integrity and workmanship of the dagger and the case is questionable for supposedly high status item. The theory of put-together item, and the provenance, is also quite plausible, considering all the above and the Italian auction houses reputation... there's a meat cleaver being pitched as rare important executioners sword by one of them... also hope I made no offence sharing this. The auction's description about a tassel being "definitely added on shogun order" falls right in with the rest of the story... the provenance based on a small porcelain ball and carved characters on the wooden box. This well could be as claimed, and seems like those who bid on it thought as such. the opinion expressed is strictly personal. Also, below is an image with the blade shown. Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 21st September 2017 at 12:28 PM.

21st September 2017, 06:39 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hi Alex, It is an Indian dagger all right. I don't discern any Japanese style/influence. Not even the small painted ball (which looks more Chinese to me). I also got asimilar dagger but without such a history... and price tag. The red stones are rubies, the orange, agathes and the green... glass. For my knife, the ruby eyes are mounted in gold... while for the "shogunal gift" ... I'm not so sure... Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st September 2017 at 07:15 PM.

21st September 2017, 06:50 PM	#4
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Someone believed the story. No close ups of the blade and copper kundan work? Maybe it was an early Chinese knock off of an Indian khanjar!! Has anyone here seen an Indian scabbard with jade on it like this one? Attached Images

21st September 2017, 08:13 PM	#7
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,492	Looks like there was originally gold on top of the copper. Attached Images

21st September 2017, 07:24 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	The scabbard looks like Ottoman work, Turkish "rococo" (but of quite pedestrian quality). There are two daggers in Hale's book, p. 78, with similar jade (?) parts on scabbard. The smaller Kanji on the box look like carved by a mentally disabled person by Japanese standards. There is no chance such writing could appear on a middle-19th cent. governments gift.

22nd September 2017, 07:35 AM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	I find it strange that the stones don't appear to be gems but coloured glass. But the photos can be deceiving. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 22nd September 2017 at 10:49 AM.