Sabre I.D. -Naval? -Diplomatic?

shayde78 · 10th September 2017, 07:58 PM

Nice piece, Jon. The casting looks crisp and of high quality. I also dig the design features of the hilt.

A question for the group...I have been curious about the use of threaded tangs/pommels on historical blades. I remember reading somewhere that in a renaissance fechtbuch, a scene is described where a combatant "unscrews" his pommel and throws it at his opponent. It also seems weapons from the 18th and 19th centuries have threaded tangs, which is much earlier than I once thought they were used. In my mind, I had presumed a threaded tang indicated a modern reproduction. As that seems to not be the case, can anyone provide more information.

Thanks...and if it is wrong to hijack Jon's thread with this question, let me know, and I'll post this as its own topic.

kronckew · 10th September 2017, 08:42 PM

found the below online, looks like the disassembled grip has a correct pommel nut with the tubular extension and hemispherical termination unlike the hex acorn nuts used by the modern cheap repros.

be careful reassembling it, the threads look stripped and may be a bit fragile and also may need the attention of a good restorer.

Jim McDougall · 11th September 2017, 04:44 AM

British band officers sabres often had full brass scabbards, and were with these kinds of features in early years of 19th to around 1840s it seems. While you would expect some sort of regimental device somewhere, and the ivory grip seems atypical, still it could be such an anomaly.

Since these I believe were private purchase who knows what unit or other but that brass scabbard and the chain guard suggest that possibility to me.

Very attractive piece and would look great in the groupings you note you collect.

kronckew · 11th September 2017, 06:25 AM

early general's standardised mamaluke hilt sabres also had full brass scabbards, changed to chromed ones late 19c.

i recall from somewhere that some private sword mfg. would leave the area reserved for branch and regimental heraldry empty until an officer purchased the sword and requested the correct badge to be drilled and added, if desired. again, easier as the hilt is dismountable, and not done on the OP's example, as the area is blank and just has the initial background texture.

Jon MB · 13th September 2017, 04:29 PM

Many thanks for all the helpful comments.

The threaded tang and pommel nut had led to me dismissing the Napoleonic era possibility, but my experience thus far has been rather limited, I haven't handled enough variations of these things.

If I collate the comments from Jim McD., Kronckew and Will M, this sabre could be British or Scottish, could date between 1800-1840, and looks like a possible private purchase/ band officer's sabre.

With regards the band officer idea, I had looked at French Tambour-major (drum major) swords that reminded of this piece (see pic. Courtesy of Primardeco Auctions, Toulouse, Fr.)

Will M · 14th September 2017, 02:54 AM

Band sword is a good possibility. It could be a British Indian sword with the bone grip.
Would have to find a reference or another sword that is identified, since these were not official pattern swords this may be difficult to do.
Regardless of who used it the sword is one of the best looking band type swords I've seen.

10th September 2017, 08:42 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	found the below online, looks like the disassembled grip has a correct pommel nut with the tubular extension and hemispherical termination unlike the hex acorn nuts used by the modern cheap repros. be careful reassembling it, the threads look stripped and may be a bit fragile and also may need the attention of a good restorer. Attached Images

13th September 2017, 04:29 PM	#5
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Many thanks for all the helpful comments. The threaded tang and pommel nut had led to me dismissing the Napoleonic era possibility, but my experience thus far has been rather limited, I haven't handled enough variations of these things. If I collate the comments from Jim McD., Kronckew and Will M, this sabre could be British or Scottish, could date between 1800-1840, and looks like a possible private purchase/ band officer's sabre. With regards the band officer idea, I had looked at French Tambour-major (drum major) swords that reminded of this piece (see pic. Courtesy of Primardeco Auctions, Toulouse, Fr.) Attached Images

10th September 2017, 07:58 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Nice piece, Jon. The casting looks crisp and of high quality. I also dig the design features of the hilt. A question for the group...I have been curious about the use of threaded tangs/pommels on historical blades. I remember reading somewhere that in a renaissance fechtbuch, a scene is described where a combatant "unscrews" his pommel and throws it at his opponent. It also seems weapons from the 18th and 19th centuries have threaded tangs, which is much earlier than I once thought they were used. In my mind, I had presumed a threaded tang indicated a modern reproduction. As that seems to not be the case, can anyone provide more information. Thanks...and if it is wrong to hijack Jon's thread with this question, let me know, and I'll post this as its own topic.

11th September 2017, 04:44 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,589	British band officers sabres often had full brass scabbards, and were with these kinds of features in early years of 19th to around 1840s it seems. While you would expect some sort of regimental device somewhere, and the ivory grip seems atypical, still it could be such an anomaly. Since these I believe were private purchase who knows what unit or other but that brass scabbard and the chain guard suggest that possibility to me. Very attractive piece and would look great in the groupings you note you collect.

11th September 2017, 06:25 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	early general's standardised mamaluke hilt sabres also had full brass scabbards, changed to chromed ones late 19c. i recall from somewhere that some private sword mfg. would leave the area reserved for branch and regimental heraldry empty until an officer purchased the sword and requested the correct badge to be drilled and added, if desired. again, easier as the hilt is dismountable, and not done on the OP's example, as the area is blank and just has the initial background texture.

14th September 2017, 02:54 AM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Band sword is a good possibility. It could be a British Indian sword with the bone grip. Would have to find a reference or another sword that is identified, since these were not official pattern swords this may be difficult to do. Regardless of who used it the sword is one of the best looking band type swords I've seen.