Difficulty’s in working with meteorite as a pamor material

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Pusaka, I believe joglosemar wrongfully quote Empu Djeno. If we use meteorite as a pamor material, we needs roughly twice times than the pure nickel amount. So, it should be : "0.5 Kg. Meteorite, 100 grams (pure) Nickel". We should put "or" between meteorite and nickel, since when you have 0.5Kg good meteorite at hand, it should be sufficient to make a good pamor without the additions of nickel, and if we have 100 gram nickel it should also sufficient, and any additions of meteorite should be considered as "magical purpose". 0.5 kg nickel would be too much. (IMHO, the correct entry should be: 12 Kg iron, 0.5 Kg Steel, 100 gr. Nickel or 200 gr meteorite). Please remember, I'm talking about a very good pamor material, as good as Prambanan Meteorite. Having opportunity of handling personally this pamor, I must say, it resembles a pieces of iron than a piece of stone. It shows metallic-grey when you scratch it, and it is very likely that you don't need to wrap it with a stripe of wrought iron to prepare it, as long as you hammer it carefully. Empu Jeno, I believe, was only working succesfully on this very good meteorite pamor material, when Sultan HB IX commisioned a keris, and didn't add any nickel since he had sufficient amount. Empu Jeno told me that he needs to put the big chunk on forge for 3 days just to cut a small pieces of material needed. He also told me that once a Belgian came to commision a keris and also brought meteorite as the pamor material. But Jeno said that it was "unproper type" meteorite, and thus, he could not use it. I have never heard that Empu Jeno works on meteorite pamor material other than Prambanans. This meteorite, and kerises, will be exhibited in Sekaten Festival of Kraton Jogjakarta, which will be held this year on 1 - 11 April 2006.

Best Regards,


Boedhi Adhitya

[purwacarita]

What called Steel is a variation of Fe and C combination imho. Jim Hrisoulas has done well with modern formula but it'll take time before become absorbable into traditional methods of keris smith. If a Belgian was serious enough to commission a traditional keris smith process, don't you think that someone should repay the visit?


~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

[Pusaka]

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for that information. What is the maximum quantity of meteorite material you could successfully forge a keris with?
I remember being told that meteorite material used to be sold in the market in Solo, Jawa. If so what was that meteorite used for and where did it come from, it is doubtful that it was from the prambanan meteor IMO.

Purwacarita, interesting question. I have often wondered the same. The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.
It is possible that you may get a primitive voltaic pile effect which would produce a miniscule surface current. In that case some pamor types would be better then others at producing it but it would have no practical use.

[nechesh]

Thank you Pusaka for making clearer the "gentle" question Purwacarita was attempting to ask. I was more curious about that than the translation, but i do appreciate Purwa going into the explanation of it's meaning again.
Purwacarita, that was some time ago. Indonesian is not my language and though it did look somewhat familar i couldn't really place it. So your "Please......give me a break! " was really un-called for. I meant no sarcasm, gentle or otherwise. This is an English speaking forum and i believe that it has been asked many times in the past that translations be provided.
I would also ask that you don't enter into these discussions with a chip on your shoulder. If you have a problem with anything i said to you in the past i ask that you either keep it there or work it out with me in PM. I try to treat everyone here fairly based upon the dialog of the PRESENT. Dregging up past disputes in unrelated debates is both counterproductive and distructive to the current discussion, don't you think?
Pusaka, if you read carefully through the thread that Andrew linked in the beginning of this thread i think you will find a post that references a book which makes mention of the fact that empus were often given quite a bit more Prambanan meteorite than was necessary to make the commissioned keris. Perhaps this could explain at least some of the meteorite that used to be found on sale in Javanese marketplaces.

[Montino Bourbon]

In very early times meteoritic material was incorporated into blades because it was an available form of relatively refined iron. Later on, it was incorporated more for the 'Power' aspect, as it "came from the sky".

I have heard of keris that were made with various irons and steels, including one made from eight different types of steel, all of which were stolen.

This points to a desire to make a keris with more than just 'Normal' properties, and since keris is so charged with 'spiritual' energy the meteorite would be included in the mix to strengthen those qualities, rather than improving the quality of the steel to make a better weapon.

In ancient Mexico, weapons were left where a 'spirit' could touch them and make them more powerful.Chaka Zulu's first Assegai, a weapon that was instrumental in his view of military strategy, in that it was for tactically advanced hand-to-hand combat rather that the relatively formalized throwing spear used in "Throw and dodge" formalized fighting, was tempered with hyena and lion intestines by Isangoma, his spiritual advisor. There are many ways that weapons can be 'charged' in various parts of the world, and because a weapon is concerned with life and death it's often respected as more than a 'tool'. Weapons have been personalized ("Ol' Betsy", Ironsides") and rightly. If a weapon preserved your life, or took another's life in the process, it became more than 'just a friend'.

Gosh, I hope that I didn't step on anyone's toes!

[MABAGANI]

Ah...written words are like double edged swords, we are communicating and gathering minds but it won't replace face to face interaction where we'd less likely misinterpret each other if we took the time to talk. In a forum or learning session someone has to ask the questions whether they be innocent or not or there wouldn't be a forum...in a tapestry of all knowledge we'd all each possess less then a shred of a thread of a fiber of dust...lolz humor, patience and humility my friends
On that note...I like this thread, yet another one on the volatile keris. I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

I would think on a spiritual level knowing even just a shard or speck of metorite dust used in a personal keris would be sufficient enough for some, without getting too scientific into the exact content, although the analysis is interesting.

Indeed, i would agree, sort of a homeopathic dose, yet KNOWING that for sure is near impossible. BELIEVING it on the other hand is just a matter of faith, and it is in BELIEF, not necessarily REALITY, that magick works (and i do mean works ). All real magick takes place within and is manifested without, the material object we use are merely tools for focus, so whether that meteorite is "really" in that keris matters little in the end.
On that note, i believe perhaps ALL of my keris might have just a little bit of metorite in them....

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me? It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The pamor layers could never be arranged to produce a capacitor effect because a capacitor needs an insulator material between the conductor plates to work. There is no material in the keris blade which would be considered an electrical insulator so producing a capacitor effect using pamor arrangements is not possible.

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

[purwacarita]

~Hing ngarsa sing tuladha, Hing madya mangun karsa, Tut wuri Handayani

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi nechesh. Have you had a PM from me? It's what I meant that we must treat fairly. There has been injustice but we cannot retaliate violence with violence.

No Purwacarita, i am afraid that i have not recieved any PMs from you. Please try again.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

Hi Pusaka. C is an insulator and metal is inducable by surrounding electromagnetic field.

Carbon is not an electrical insulator; actually it’s a very good electrical conductor. If you put two metal plates with a piece of carbon between them you will find that it wont make a capacitor but that the whole thing will just short the circuit. I know a little about Electronics and Engineering

[Pusaka]

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

In a word Pusaka, NO, i don't think that is possible.
Sellers will tell you many stories in order to sell their wares. Caveat Emptor!

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I am surprised, even with Boedhi Adhitya`s higher estimate the composition of a typical meteorite pamor keris is 94% Iron, 4% Steel and only 2% meteorite material.
I had always thought that the meteorite content of the pamor would have been several times that quantity.
I was shown a meteorite keris and the seller said it had a pamor made with 70% meteorite content, what do you think, is that even possible????

Considering the absolutely tiny content of meteorite in a meteorite pamor keris I don’t think the high prices for such items is even justified.

Hi Pusaka,
Please remember, the 12 kg. I said are considered as "raw iron". After 'refining process', (wasuh, 'to wash'), that is, to weld iron bar onto itself back and forth, the 'cleaned' iron amount would only as many as 5 kg. or so. The 12 kg are the raw iron materials needed to make what traditionally called 'Tangguh Sedayu', which is believed to have approx. 4096 pamor layers, which is by many experts here in Java, considered as the most-layered keris ever made in Java. Other tangguh may need iron less. Please also remember, all of this information, as I recall, came from Empu Djeno, which may have done some 'research' or experiment on this subject. I believe his father, Supowinangun, did not leave any note, because unfortunatelly, according to Empu Jeno himself, his father was illiterate. There is no exact amount on the materials used in keris making here in Java, everything judged by experience.

I have not read any old and 'credible' traditional notes/script/book about keris which explain the keris making process, and thus, we may only rely on the works of Westerner likes Gronnemen, Jasper&Pirngadie or Garret Solyom. In fact, traditional book likes Serat Centhini, as I recall, didn't write about meteorite as pamor material, while it warn about the 'danger' of 'unproper' pamor pattern. But other traditional books write a lot about the iron and it's 'Tuah' ('magic power'). It also said 'The Steel gives strenght, The Iron gives 'Powers', and The Pamor gives lusters/radiance'. Pamor also called 'Sekaring Braja' (sekar=bunga=flower, braja=weapon/blade). Thus, a keris blade without pamor, which also called 'Pamor Wulung' (wulung=black), exists, but I have never seen a 100% keris blade made of pamor materials. (while never seen is not necessarily didn't exist, I may confidently enough to say, there is no 100% meteorite-made keris blade in Jogjakarta Court's Pusaka Inventories). The reasons behind this 'fact' may be as many as we could imagine, but as Eskimos/Inuit http://www.taiga.net/yourYukon/col168.html and our friend Jeff Pringle shown us, it is possible to make a blade with 100% meteorite materials. If it is condidered as 'very powerful' by Javanese, some King/Sunan/Sultan in Java may commisioned one too But I didn't said that it has no 'power' at all

Yes, pamor material were used to sold in market. Not only the meteorite, but also the 'Luwu' or 'Bugis' pamor. The meteorite ones were said to be more expensive than gold. The Prambanan wasn't an exclusion. While the biggest part was brought to Surakarta court, the small pieces left from it was 'mined' and traded for years. And also, when the Sunan of Surakarta commisioned keris(es), the empus may took the small pieces which was fallen when they cut the meteorite. This practices called 'Ngalap Berkah', and still practised today on virtually any events/ceremonies in both Courts (Surakarta and Jogjakarta).

About 70% meteorite content, well, have the seller do the scientific analysis on the blade? Or was he watching when the empu forged it? Personally, I would very happy to pay more on a good keris with 'pamor wulung' (that is, without pamor) than to buy 'roughtly made' keris with meteoric pamor. I suggest, we should 'make sure' about what we really looking for/expecting from a keris, before we have one (or two, or hundreds ) If we have made our intentions clear, with the help of knowledges, we may found the blade we wish, and may avoid unnecessary disappointment. Just be careful when 'keris fever' come

Best Regards,

Boedhi Adhitya

[Mark]

Purwacarita, Necesh, will you drop it, please? Consider yourselves warned.

Feel free to continue the substance of the discussion, and feel free to continue your personal discussions via PM and e-mail. However, leave out the side comments in your forum posts.

[Jeff Pringle]

Jeff, correct me if i am wrong, but you seem to be speaking from a modern custom knife making perspective. I certainly do believe that higher percentage meteoric blades are possible to construct, but do you really think this is happening in the keris world?

You are correct, I am speaking from a 'custom knife' perspective. However, my methods are rather primitive/'historically informed' shall we say - I'm not using alot of modern improvements to help me. So all I'm saying is, it is possible to get quite a bit of meteorite into a blade, and it's doable with traditional forging methods.
I am definitely NOT well enough informed to say if this is happening in the keris world.
The difficulty of working the material and the romance/coolness factor of meteoric material would lead me to believe that meteorite content would tend to get exagerated and/or invented in most cases, but it also leads me to hope that there are a few traditionally-minded smiths out there working it, too.

[Rick]

I know of at least one .
His work is usually never for sale .