Silver Keris

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,

Not only that I would expect to see Ganesha, but I have actually seen several new Javanese keris blades with Ganesha and some with Garuda. They were also carved in gold-work very similar to the one of this blade. I suppose they were made for the tourist market.

I have seen the respective blades in the market in Solo and at a dealer in Jogja, and I am pretty sure they were locally made and not "imported" from Bali.

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Also see photos of another un-Islamic antropomorphic Javanese keris and of an un-Islamic Madurese Garuda Keris (that both were in my posession).

Last but not least, I am attaching a photo from the book "The Javanese Kris" by Isaac Groneman, that also illustrates a Ganesha example.



PS: I have more examples but they are currently on sale.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade?

Hello Marius,

what you see there is corrosion, when I remember correct was there more corrosion which Roland has removed.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Here is a keris from my collection where the singha is a later addition. Sorry for the bad picture, it's just taken and the sun is gone already, so taken with flash, but I think it's to seen.
The keris from Roland is clealy worked like this originally.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

But two very different animals, one is an antique keris (page 218/19), the other one is modern art.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

Marius, your keris that you have linked to may well have been made in Jawa, but it was not made for a Javanese audience. It is a nicely crafted art piece probably aimed at a Western consumer like yourself. It bares very little resemblance to the examples shown in the Groneman book and serves a completely different intent and purpose.

[A. G. Maisey]

Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Marius' keris belongs to the Kamardikan school, and very clearly displays its Sumenep/Aeng Tong-Tong heritage.

Contrary to the belief of many collectors who live in the World Outside Jawa, this type of keris is not produced specifically with those collectors in mind.

In Indonesia itself, this type of work is regarded as art, and regularly makes its appearance at the various keris exhibitions that are held in Indonesia.

Some collectors of keris and art in Indonesia will collect only keris from the Kamardikan classification. It is a pretty solid market.

The influence of collectors in the World Outside Jawa is not material in its impact on this market, of far greater importance is the local market in Indonesia itself. It is this local market that is targeted by the artists who produce Kamardikan keris, not the minuscule market in the outside world.

Thanks for your input on this Alan. I am aware of all that you say, but my logic was that collectors within the Indonesian market would be more interested in Kamardikan keris that kept within the "lexicon" of accepted Indonesian iconography. Since this keris steps well outside that with its depiction of winged dragons and elephant-headed serpents i assumed it was intended for a different market of collectors.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, the local market in Indonesia is very, very big, and pretty enthusiastic. The people in that market have areas of interest that cover all aspects. The type of keris such as Marius has fits into one niche of that market.

Going back into the early 1980's there was a keris exhibition held in Solo by the ASKI boys, and some of those makers exhibited work that explored the idea of the keris as a canvas for art, some of that art was decidedly outside the keris tradition. Some people were highly critical of it:-

"yes, its art, but is it a keris!!???"

Other people were very impressed by that work, and bought it.

In fact, going back into the 19th century old keris were being used as the canvas for art work.

Some Indonesian collectors like this sort of work, others detest it.The distinction is probably pretty much similar to art lovers in the Western World who like modern art, and those who are hardcore traditionalists.

My personal attitude is that in a comprehensive keris collection we should not discriminate against any particular type of keris. But the key word here is "comprehensive", and not all collections are comprehensive, some people prefer to target a particular class of keris.

As for the lexicon of local iconography, in my experience very, very few people in Indonesia who are involved with the keris have much understanding of this at all.

The dominant culture in Indonesia is Javanese culture. This has always been true and is true now. There is a core of Javanese values, but the peripherals change constantly and always have. Jawa accepts and adapts everything that comes into the society.