Silver Keris

[David]

Well, i don't think there is any question that this blade has some age. That doesn't mean that it is not of the contemporary period of keris manufacture. Let's keep in mind that even a keris made in 1977 will have 40 years of age on it.
Thanks for the detailed dimensions. Though the blade length is more in keeping with blades from Jawa and Madura i do not believe the length of only 14.5 inches counts it out as Balinese work. I personally own 2 keris which are most certainly Bali/Lombok blades that are 12.5 and 13.5 inches respectively.
Roland, the VOC ceased operation at the very end of the 18th century. While we may be able to continue debating the age of the blade i, for one, would rule out that it comes from that early a period of time.
I don't think there is really any question that we are indeed looking at a keris of some quality so regardless of where the final consensus falls regarding age and origin i believe we can all agree that this is still a keris worthy of discussion.

[A. G. Maisey]

I am finding the comments posted to this thread very interesting, and I do hope that discussion continues, however, I will not be taking part in this discussion because of personal reasons.

I do have one question.

the IFICAH exhibition has been mentioned a couple of times.

I do not have the hardcopy book that went with this exhibition, and regrettably I live a little bit too far away from the place where it was held to permit me to have visited.

My question is this:-

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?

[Richard W]

That is an excellent and exceptional object, old or not so very old, it is magnificent; and in 300 years it will continue to be wonderful, as it is today. Would love it in my collection. I would hang it between my Rajistan silver work and my Balinese items.
Thank you for sharing it with us.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?[/B]

Detlef (sajen) knows some of the founders of the foundation and he probably knows the person, who donated the different Silver-Keris to the foundation.
He will try to find out in the next weeks, who is responsible for the descriptions.

Roland

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

.... who is responsible for the descriptions.

For this I don't need some weeks, the catalog descriptions are from Dr. Achim Weihrauch, Dr. Udo Kloubert and Adni Aljunied.

[A. G. Maisey]

I did not ask about the descriptions, I asked about the provenance, that is, where did the exhibits come from and when, from whom were they acquired?

Taking only one keris as an example:-

was it brought to Europe by some known person at some known time, or was it acquired from some unknown person at some unknown time?

Was it purchased at auction from an unknown seller?

Was it bought from an estate?

Where was it before it appeared in the exhibition?

Just exactly what is known about this object before it appeared in this exhibition?

Can we date the time and place where it made its first known appearance?

Perhaps some have provenance, perhaps some do not, so let us turn our attention to the two keris that Kai has mentioned. Do these keris have provenance? Can we date the time and place where these keris made their first known appearance?

[kai]

Hello Alan,

You were typing faster than me...

Perhaps some have provenance, perhaps some do not, so let us turn our attention to the two keris that Kai has mentioned. Do these keris have provenance? Can we date the time and place where these keris made their first known appearance?

I'll try to ask. I guess these 2 keris came from a fairly secretive collector but we may get some additional info. If so, I'll post an update ASAP.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

That would be good Kai.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

the IFICAH exhibition has been mentioned a couple of times.

I do not have the hardcopy book that went with this exhibition

The link in my post #17 gives you access to the full book (PDF file).

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?

Well, the short answer is probably no - unless you define reliable (and possibly provenance... ).

The keris in the exhibition were loans from private collections and there is no provenance stated for the 2 keris shown in this thread; however, most specimens in famous museum collections don't have any reasonable provenance either.

I assume the accompanying descriptions were done by Achim Weihrauch, Adni Aljunied, and Udo Kloubert. Certainly many keris in museum collections have not been studied in depth by experts accepted by any of the senior keris people from the land of Jawa (and if so they probably won't agree with each other either !).

Thus, I guess we have to live with what we have. The authors' estimates resonates with our discussion here: "Earlier 20th century, maybe end of 19th century." [As mentioned, I'd tend towards a later date.]

I guess, some pointers from you would not hurt though, Alan!

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Kai, you have given me precisely the response I expected.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My question is this:-

were the keris in this exhibition accompanied by reliable provenance?

Hello Alan,

Kai has already said what I can say but like Kai I will try to get further informations.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Detlef.

[mariusgmioc]

As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Besides, I find strange I haven't seen any hilt in this style anywhere in Indonesia (and I have visited quite a few museums and collections there) and then, they suddenly pop up in European collections.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

As I said earlier, I find the hilt absolutely fascinating but... so much similar to the style of the famous Milanese armourer Filippo Negroli.

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

Hello Marius,

thank you for your comment. All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.

The silver-work on the scabbard is of very high quality but compared to the scabbard in the added picture it is just average.

If you think, you have a top grade item, there is always a better one .


Best wishes,
Roland

p.s. please dont tell anyone from this picture, it is top secret

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

All I can say is that despite its shape, the hilt is very ergonomic, which is typical for Indonesia.

The only thing on the hilt which is traditional are the decorations on the base of the hilt. If the hilt would be from Europe, it normallly got a stamp and or signature. So I think the complete Keris has been made in Indonesia.

Hello Roland,

I am not so sure ergonomics can be seen as a criteria specific to Indonesia. I have seen European silver handles for walking sticks that are quite ergonomic and some were unmarked.

Anyhow, it certainly is the work of a very skilled silversmith.

Regards,

Marius

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Could it be that the hilt comes from an Italian or German workshop?

Well. personally i have little doubt this silverwork is Balinese. The questions for me are more about timeframe than location. Balinese silversmiths are renown for their skills. They are also quite good at picking up and mimicking the styles. While i do see what you see that seems to show a European influence i would think that just "influence" is as far as that goes.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i don't think there is any question that this blade has some age.

Hello David,

Well, the blade certainly has "some" age but in my opinion it is less than 20, most likely less than 10 years old.

The pamor is crisp and clear and all the fine details of the carvings are equally crisp and clear.

From all what I know, even a blade kept in ideal conditions, in time will show less contrast of the pamor.

Moreover, the style/theme of decoration is almost identical to the style/theme I saw in several new kerises I have seen in the market in Solo. The pamor also seems the average pamor one can see on many new kerises.

Last but not least, the quality and detail of the engraving doesn't appear to be neither very elaborate, nor very well executed. To me, it looks by no means better than the average kerises I have seen in the market in Solo or at the dealer in Jogja.

All these make me be pretty sure it is a recently made, Javanese blade. But I have very little experience with kerises and I base my judgement mostly on comparisons with the kerises I saw during my recent trip to Indonesia and the few that passed through my hands.

So, if I am wrong in my assertion, I would appreciate if you or anybody on this forum can help and educate me as to what makes the blade of this keris Balinese, older than 10 years or otherwise very special?!

Regards,

Marius

[Sajen]

Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

only one short question: Would you expect to see Ganesha (a hindu god) in this execusion on a blade fom a islamic region?

I've seen and handled keris blades in nearly mint condition which has been verifiable more as hundred years old.

Best regards,
Detlef

Hello Detlef,

Not only that I would expect to see Ganesha, but I have actually seen several new Javanese keris blades with Ganesha and some with Garuda. They were also carved in gold-work very similar to the one of this blade. I suppose they were made for the tourist market.

I have seen the respective blades in the market in Solo and at a dealer in Jogja, and I am pretty sure they were locally made and not "imported" from Bali.

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Also see photos of another un-Islamic antropomorphic Javanese keris and of an un-Islamic Madurese Garuda Keris (that both were in my posession).

Last but not least, I am attaching a photo from the book "The Javanese Kris" by Isaac Groneman, that also illustrates a Ganesha example.



PS: I have more examples but they are currently on sale.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

Having a further look at the blade of this keris, I have seen some strange traces (see red arrows).

Could it be that the Ganesha was welded to the blade?

Hello Marius,

what you see there is corrosion, when I remember correct was there more corrosion which Roland has removed.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Here is a keris from my collection where the singha is a later addition. Sorry for the bad picture, it's just taken and the sun is gone already, so taken with flash, but I think it's to seen.
The keris from Roland is clealy worked like this originally.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Just have a look at the link below and see a perfect example of a very un-Islamic Ganesho-Garuda-Himero-Naga Javanese keris that is in my possesion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

the "keris" in this thread has nothing to do with traditional traditinal keris culture, I wouldn't be surprised when it would have been added Homer from the Simpsons!

Regards,
Detlef

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

But two very different animals, one is an antique keris (page 218/19), the other one is modern art.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21200

Yet, it was made in Java!

Like the one in Isaac Groneman's book.

Marius, your keris that you have linked to may well have been made in Jawa, but it was not made for a Javanese audience. It is a nicely crafted art piece probably aimed at a Western consumer like yourself. It bares very little resemblance to the examples shown in the Groneman book and serves a completely different intent and purpose.