Jineta/nimcha/kattara

[fernando]

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".


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[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".
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The art work you show here is quite phenomenal and in all likelihood links the Kastane with Portuguese form at first glances. Can it be tied to Sri Lankan style? Does it not appear to be German? ...See below for other similar hilts. Could it not be Storta in form? I place a frame load of Storta for interest and comparison.

[fernando]

Ah ... you raise this question to the author i have being quoting and he will immediately state that, the downturned quillons in the Kastane were brought to Ceilão by the Portuguese and, as the locals didn't resource to Portuguese fencing style, those quillons in Kastanes soon became 'atrophied'.


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[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Ah ... you raise this question to the author i have being quoting and he will immediately state that, the downturned quillons in the Kastane were brought to Ceilão by the Portuguese and, as the locals didn't resource to Portuguese fencing style, those quillons in Kastanes soon became 'atrophied'.


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But they aren't Quilons per se. These come from the Vajra format in the religion of the region... Probably Tibetan origin. Pre 5th C. AD
I would further suggest that the Kastane became a court sword and transitioned before that as a secretaries sword in the equivalent of the civil service but that in the Portuguese era another form may have existed...similar to the stone carved example below, lying on the ground, bearing in mind that differences in the guard may be the result of it having been made by a Portuguese stone mason.... so it may be slightly wrong...however, it seems the blade is a battle field one; and the rest of the carving is accurate. Not the flimsy blade seen on Kastane afterwards. I could go on to suggest that the early battlefield Kastane may not have had quilons at all; like the weapon below in stone. It has a straight guard. No quilons.

By the way the sword you have ringed above is in the Japanese Museum and was purchased as a gift by Hasekura in the Philipines. In my view that hilt is a Storta as well... hardly surprising since Iberian shipping was in the region full time and in huge numbers thus a Storta or two would certainly have been on board some of them so cross hilting could certainly have occured. That blade seems to me to be a Battlefield blade as well.

Would it not be more plausible to suggest that the sword shown from your author of the broad curved paddle style blade at #52 may have gone into the Indian Ocean ( on board a Portuguese Battleship) as a Portuguese/Benin weapon and came out in the same format unchanged and actually with no link with the Kastane?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...Would it not be more plausible to suggest that the sword shown from your author of the broad curved paddle style blade at #52 may have gone into the Indian Ocean ( on board a Portuguese Battleship) as a Portuguese/Benin weapon and came out in the same format unchanged and actually with no link with the Kastane?

I don't think i (after the author) said the Benin sword has anything to do with the Kastane. It would be more plausible to assume that, while the Portuguese wandered around Benin lands, they brought this sword directly to their homeland. ... don't ask me how they have acquired it.
It was in a different approach that i mentioned his statement that the down curved arms in the Kastane were of Portuguese influence, this obviously not referring to the whole sword. Actually, in the various pictures he shows of these swords from his collection in his book, he always tags them as Cingalese. But it is equally true his statement that also their ricasso shows Portuguese influence ... for what is worth.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...similar to the stone carved example below, lying on the ground, bearing in mind that differences in the guard may be the result of it having been made by a Portuguese stone mason.... so it may be slightly wrong...however, it seems the blade is a battle field one; and the rest of the carving is accurate.... It has a straight guard. No quilons....

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impedes to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.


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[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impeaches to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.

Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon. Regarding the other sword ...on the ground... which is I suggest the battle version of the KASTANE though without quilons and with a straight guard and no knuckleguard ; a few points.

My question to you is why would a battlefield weapon, then, have the style of quilon seen in later Kastane? ...Swords which were clearly weak bladed and which had no fighting practicality but were in fact badge of office tokens... or Icons awash with Buddhist designs..

Surely a religious Icon like the hilt, the peacock tail rain-guard, the other zoomorphic creatures and the very important religious architecture of the misnomered "quilons" or thunderbolts..."the Vajra" ...be placed on a battlesword when they were so revered in Buddhism from the very beginning... The Great Buddha himself carried the Vajra to Tibet; It would not be placed on a blade...on a battlesword... Thus I point to the Kastane Quilons in the bling badge of office version as misplaced and misnamed by European experts ...but very real as religious architecture.

To be precise I would have to show an earlier Tibettan sword with Vajra Quilon architecture illustrating my point.

For that I refer to the Boston Museum of Fine Art for the 14th Century Khadya Tibetto-Chinese sword with Vajra styled Quilons acting as they are designed ... as thunderbolts ...and in the pure sense as religious Icons.

Please see http://sword-site.com/thread/1018/tibetan-sword-khadya

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680 where I have updated details in that thread and for comments.

and below with a reminder of the Vajra cutting device added;

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

...Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon...

My bad. Up to now i never focused on the swords of this carving as the other time we discussed it was to try and dechipher the text it contains, with an unsuccessful result, though. As for the sword on the ground, i wouldn't know what it is; although i would venture what it is not; a Kastane ... and neither the often cited (in Portuguese chronicles) Calachurro, that used by Lascarins with a length visibly shorter than the one depicted. Bt let me no decisive on the subject,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".
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The sword basic form is Benin African tribal see below and at http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...c;f=8;t=008949 probably with a Storta hilt... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion.

Benin Sword below.

[Gonzalo G]

I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

This is a Forum. Consider the size of the problem with this swords movement and morphology across the globe at a time of great upheaval and exploration... It must have affected 100 countries and continued to do so for generations. I focus on some unanswered sectors like Kastane and the idiosyncrasies of Nimcha. They and many other swords are possibly related. Others in the discussion have no problem dealing with this... it is often what transpires ... a multi faceted approach. Personally I feel the position is good as the answers largely monitored by a senior staff member of considerable experience in this field is going well and he has no problem dealing with two directions simultaneously.

The complexity is fascinating in this regard but the thread title may throw some... There is no need to consider Kattarra as it is not in the mix... however, that is only a suggestion lest you think I am leading the thread ! It will go where it goes... and I see no reason to change my own track... but you can do what you like...I learn a lot from the added focus upon Spanish and Portuguese links and it can be seen I have placed serious input from the Italian direction and naturally the Indian Ocean which is only half an hour away!

I believe more in free association of ideas rather than getting hung up on strict references because more astute contributors than you or I will drive a bus through that lot as you may have already discovered.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This is a Forum.................

Let us all hold our horses, Ibrahiim !!!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

Don't be so concerned, Gonzalo. If there is someone to be flogged, let it be me. Falcatas are also not in the jinet-nimcha-kattara diet ... and besides, i already made a repair of this hijacking to the thread author (post #2). We may be diverting, but not trespassing the frontiers of what is reasonable ... i hope .

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

Falcatas are also not in the jinet-nimcha-kattara diet

They are, since we analyze the possible influence of the falcata on the equine form of the nimcha hilt.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... The sword basic form is Benin African tribal ... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion...

Benin origin as said by the author. My imagination drives me to realize that, following the practice had with the ivory and bronze objects from Benin, seen in the best musems out there ( Met ... British ...), in that those speechless artifacts were ordered by Portuguese navigators to bring home to those interested noble and wealthy, it could well be that such sword blade was hilted (not necessarily rehilted) by a local smith under Portuguese 'customer' instrutions and the setup brought directly home. I fail to see the logic of the loop Around Ceilão, as suggeste by the author/owner. The face of a Portuguese in the bridge is rather plausible, as entire Portuguese soldiers, with crossbow, musket and all, were featured in bronze miniatures and ivory salt cellars.
But an European Lion ... i never thought of that

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

in that those speechless artifacts were ordered by Portuguese navigators to bring home to those interested noble and wealthy