Jineta/nimcha/kattara

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

My hypotheses: the original Zenete-Jineta was not the type of dressing sword used by the Nasrid nobility. This last had a blade more in accord with the traditional muslim broadsword, except for the hilt, which was influenced by the Zenete but highly ornamented, and not capable to support the “Italian grip”, since the altered form of the quillons did not allow it: they were literally closing over the blade. It is a common feature of the ceremonial swords to imitate old forms and use extreme ornamentation, since they gave to their owners the prestige of tradition and power. Fighting swords were another matter.

The Christians were influenced by this last type of sword, but with modified quillons and an incipient development of the ring guards, probably a development from the grip and quillons of the fighting jineta swords. It is not casual that the first ring guards, which evolved to the “crab claw”, appeared for the first time in the Iberic Peninsula, on the Christian Spanish and Portuguese swords (please see the Black Swords or “Colhona” used by the Portuguese). It must remembered that also Portugal was part of the Muslim domain and that to the 15th Century, even already independent, was influenced by the military traditions from the rest of the Peninsula.

The rapier evolved, at least in part, from this original fighting jineta sword. The cited study from Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer points in this direction.

The nimcha sword type of quillons does not necessarily owe to any European tradition. The cultural elements behind them were already in North Africa long time ago. In the Catálogo de la Real Amería de Madrid (the catalog of the royal armory of Madrid), we find a suggestive description of four sabres taken from the Spanish Expedition to Oran in 1732 (free translation): “Four Moorish sabers owned by the Bey of Oran. The first one with wood hilt and a cap of engraved silver; guard, quillon and guard rings ended in pythons, all this decorated. The second one has a hilt of horn with plaques of chiseled silver, guard with a quillon and ring guards made of steel. The other two have their hilts covered with shell, nacre and plaques of chiseled silver, guard, quillon and guard ring made of engraved metal. ” Catálogo de la Real Armería, edited by Aguado, Madrid, 1854. p.61. It must be noted thay they are sabres, had a guard (probably a knuckleguard) and only one quillon, since the word “gavilán” in spanish denotes a single quillon. Does this rings something? Maybe a nimcha?.

On the other side, just saying that the jineta or the nimcha are “likely” or “suggestedly” a product of influences from Italy or France, is patently a subjective judgment, as the words imply. And sometimes we found a wide abuse of this words, if not supported by clear facts. The first fact we have to take in consideration is that there are no European hilts in the 13th Century resembling those of the jineta sword. The second fact is that the crab-claw type of guards appear until 15th Century in the Iberic Peninsula (see Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer), and their only visible antecedent is the fighting jineta sword. Again, see the Castilian and Portuguese swords from this period.

And speaking of the possible diffusion into Europe, especially Italy, from this type of hilts, the berbers did have contact with Europe, contrary to what has been said. Europe did not came to North Africa, but the berbers went to Europe in this period. Just to mention some facts: Aghlabid Berbers conquered Sicily, North African Muslims colonized Bari, Taranto and Apulia in the 9th Century and in the 10th Century they fought in Southern France as allies in local Christian quarrels. Bishop Athanasius recruited Islamic troops and Muslims settled in the province of Lucania. David Nicolle & Angus McBride, The Moors. The Islamic West 7th-15th Centuries AD, Osprey Military, Col. Men-at-Arms, No.348. 2001, UK, p.16. And the Zenetes were a military contingent in all this armies. Just search in the history of the Berber emirates and dynasties and you will find.

Salaams Gonzalo G,
In red ink above ...This sword form Shown Below is interesting and found their way down the West African diaspora with the Portuguese...The Carracks Black Sword sometimes called Crab Sword, is a type of sword invented in Portugal, during the 15th century, designed to be used by soldiers and sailors in ships and caravels in the Age of Discovery.

It is characterized by having a guard with two protective rings, with the guard terminals in the form of two flat drops, the referred guard terminals facing toward the tip of the blade, and forming round large plates, sharpened to the point where they can be used as extra blades, because they can be convenient in close combat.

The protective rings, in addition to the protective function of the fingers can also serve to trap an opponent's blade.

These swords were painted black not to reflect the light and announce their presence on ships, avoiding also its rusting when used near salt water.

It was also known by Portuguese soldiers as colhona (which in rude Portuguese means approximately “big balls”) due to the round shape of the terminal plates, reminiscent of a representation of the testicles in a phallic symbol in the form of sword.

This type of sword would have appeared between 1460 and 1480 and saw much of its use in Portuguese trading cities in Africa, coming to be used as a symbol of honor by the local chiefs.

In Green Catálogo de la Real Armería[/I], edited by Aguado, Madrid, 1854. p.61. It must be noted thay they are sabres, had a guard (probably a knuckleguard) and only one quillon, since the word “gavilán” in spanish denotes a single quillon

~ Actually see https://archive.org/details/catlogohistricod00real where there is no sword on that page but at page 200 theres a strange looking weapon with a knuckle guard two quilons but only half a Guard ... I think this is your sword.... Very interesting...I see the link you point to regarding Nimcha ...and I have placed it below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This type of sword would have appeared between 1460 and 1480 and saw much of its use in Portuguese trading cities in Africa, coming to be used as a symbol of honor by the local chiefs.

So? It is what I said before. Are you implying that the black sword influenced the development of Moroccan swords? Please read the serious works I referenced and stop copying pages from Wikipedia and jumping into conclusions from them. I know that stuff well.
Besides, the Portuguese only had few commercial post in the coast of Morocco and didn't penetrate into Berber land.

By the way, it is to be noted that foreign swords were used as symbols of prestige among many peoples. The French and the British also purchased oriental swords as "exotics". You know, to show off. The Deccan Court in the 16th-17th Century only purchased English swords as gifts, since they considered that they were useless as fighting weapons from their bad quality (see Robert Elgod in Sultans of the South).

Bye

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

So? It is what I said before. Are you implying that the black sword influenced the development of Moroccan swords? Please read the serious works I referenced and stop copying pages from Wikipedia and jumping into conclusions from them. I know that stuff well.
Besides, the Portuguese only had few commercial post in the coast of Morocco and didn't penetrate into Berber land.

By the way, it is to be noted that foreign swords were used as symbols of prestige among many peoples. The French and the British also purchased oriental swords as "exotics". You know, to show off. The Deccan Court in the 16th-17th Century only purchased English swords as gifts, since they considered that they were useless as fighting weapons from their bad quality (see Robert Elgod in Sultans of the South).

Bye

HA ! Tengo que llevar zapatos que me quedan o seguro que tendré un gavilán

[fernando]

For as much as authors claim their knowledge and state their opinions as if they were facts, lack of susbtantial evidence often forms their strong adversary.
The black sword episode, as i suppose originally brought up, comes in HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES (page 164), by Rainer Daehnhardt
The conclusion that black swords were to prevent them from rust and also to prevent them from light refection, is his assumption. There is nothing written to state so; the name given in period inventories was ESPADAS PRETAS DE BORDO (board black swords). Assuming the rust prevention sounds logical, the double purpose of light reflection, which the author cites in first place, may be taken, nothing avoids, as just a romantic touch.
On the other hand, the 'colhona' swords 'convenientely' having their terminals sharpened to function as extra blades in a man to man fight, being also a quotation present in the same book, may only lack the term 'often' as nothing shows that they all had this intervention, but still has its veracity, as stated and surely verified in an example shown in the said work.
Maybe the down curved quillons issue has a more precise approach in this thread, but still interesting to notice how this phenomenom spread around, as shown (again) in the quoted book. The location and age of these examples attributed by the author is facultative.

#1 Sword of 1500's navigator, of Venetian origin.
#2 Sword breaker, also called left hand dagger of the reeds, Portuguese
influence in the Orient, XVIII-XIX centuries.
#3 Sword of Portuguese navigator, end XV century. Attributed to Pedro
Alvares Cabral (Brazil discoverer).
#4 Portuguese colonial sword, XVI century. with the magic number 1441
and the Passau wolf engraved in the blade.
#5 Portuguese colonial sword, with the round terminals sharpened and
perforated with the cross symbol.
#6 Portuguese colonial sword, with golden brass guard.
#7 Navigator sword second half XV century, used both in the Iberian
Peninsula as also by Italian peoples, then cultularly interconnected.

(All examples belonging in the R.D. collection)
.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

For as much as authors claim their knowledge and state their opinions as if they were facts, lack of susbtantial evidence often forms their strong adversary.
The black sword episode, as i suppose originally brought up, comes in HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES (page 164), by Rainer Daehnhardt
The conclusion that black swords were to prevent them from rust and also to prevent them from light refection, is his assumption. There is nothing written to state so; the name given in period inventories was ESPADAS PRETAS DE BORDO (board black swords). Assuming the rust prevention sounds logical, the double purpose of light reflection, which the author cites in first place, may be taken, nothing avoids, as just a romantic touch.
On the other hand, the 'colhona' swords 'convenientely' having their terminals sharpened to function as extra blades in a man to man fight, being also a quotation present in the same book, may only lack the term 'often' as nothing shows that they all had this intervention, but still has its veracity, as stated and surely verified in an example shown in the said work.
Maybe the down curved quillons issue has a more precise approach in this thread, but still interesting to notice how this phenomenom spread around, as shown (again) in the quoted book. The location and age of these examples attributed by the author is facultative.

#1 Sword of 1500's navigator, of Venetian origin.
#2 Sword breaker, also called left hand dagger of the reeds, Portuguese
influence in the Orient, XVIII-XIX centuries.
#3 Sword of Portuguese navigator, end XV century. Attributed to Pedro
Alvares Cabral (Brazil discoverer).
#4 Portuguese colonial sword, XVI century. with the magic number 1441
and the Passau wolf engraved in the blade.
#5 Portuguese colonial sword, with the round terminals sharpened and
perforated with the cross symbol.
#6 Portuguese colonial sword, with golden brass guard.
#7 Navigator sword second half XV century, used both in the Iberian
Peninsula as also by Italian peoples, then cultularly interconnected.

(All examples belonging in the R.D. collection)
.

Salaams Fernando~ First; your examples of the Crab swords are excellent and add weight around the general theme. In your opener you note about authors and knowledge and perhaps truth and fiction for it is a two edged sword writing books. It is as if whatever has been committed to print in a book must be true. As a foil to that theory what is written in Forums takes on an opposite slant... It becomes a target for knocking down and has to be stacked up with book based facts "Chapter and Verse" before it can be even considered! On balance I agree with that and it is on the hot anvil of discussion that these things are ironed out..sometimes quite fiercely indeed.

It goes without saying that one of the broadest puzzles is built in and around the Nimcha and one of the most contentious. Many mainly Mediterranean countries appear to claim some aspect of the architecture of this weapon but it hardly stops dead at the Moroccan version since that was its format at that time and aspects of that surely transmitted to other weapons... not least to the Zanzibari Nimcha and other swords which were exported to the Americas sporting similar hilts. The Great London Band's officers used the Nimcha; Tobias Blose is shown in a painting in the late Anthony North's Islamic Arms wearing the weapon.

In another thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha there is included in quote a question about sword style transmission by Jewish craftsmen in red below viz;

Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco
Dated: 16th Century
Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn
Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g

Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade.

This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan.

The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character.

How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote.

Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden.

The Nimcha hilt can be seen below..

[fernando]

... Nothwithstanding those that i envy, whom by reading, learning and reasoning, achieve a level of wisdom and common sense that enables them to filter those often ocurred sources implausibilities. We may be glad to enjoy the presence of a number of these persons around here.

Have a look at this sword ... and read what the owner writes about it:

" The Moroccan Nimcha. A sabre of Portuguese influence. The handle with a shape of horse head is a remnant of the Lusitanian falcata, which descends from the Indo-European type. The shape of the guards, turned towards the blade, originates in Portuguese swords. The protecting ring and the (knuckle) guard that raises to the pommel were influenced by the Portuguese swords of the first half XVI century."

... Would you guys find this is plausible ?


.

[fernando]

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".


.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".
.

The art work you show here is quite phenomenal and in all likelihood links the Kastane with Portuguese form at first glances. Can it be tied to Sri Lankan style? Does it not appear to be German? ...See below for other similar hilts. Could it not be Storta in form? I place a frame load of Storta for interest and comparison.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... .

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".
.

The sword basic form is Benin African tribal see below and at http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...c;f=8;t=008949 probably with a Storta hilt... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion.

Benin Sword below.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Nothwithstanding those that i envy, whom by reading, learning and reasoning, achieve a level of wisdom and common sense that enables them to filter those often ocurred sources implausibilities. We may be glad to enjoy the presence of a number of these persons around here.

Have a look at this sword ... and read what the owner writes about it:

" The Moroccan Nimcha. A sabre of Portuguese influence. The handle with a shape of horse head is a remnant of the Lusitanian falcata, which descends from the Indo-European type. The shape of the guards, turned towards the blade, originates in Portuguese swords. The protecting ring and the (knuckle) guard that raises to the pommel were influenced by the Portuguese swords of the first half XVI century."

... Would you guys find this is plausible ?
.

Salaams Fernando, and again thanks for your input which is an eye opener ... The weapon you show as a Moroccan Nimcha, however, is Zanzibari. The knuckle guard is rounded not squared. The hilt is clearly of the Zanzibari type and I can also almost see the turtle insignia shape on top of the Pommel. Butin indicates this style on Zanzibari form. Are we saying that this style was introduced to Zanzibar by the Portuguese... ?

See Below; In Butin all the Knuckle Guards in Moroccan examples are squared off. In Zanzibar types they are all rounded.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Fernando ... The weapon you show as a Moroccan Nimcha, however, is Zanzibari. The knuckle guard is rounded not squared...

I was not reputing as good the attribution given by the author to this nimcha; that was not the point. I was only quoting (by translation) his assumption .

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

" The Moroccan Nimcha. A sabre of Portuguese influence. The handle with a shape of horse head is a remnant of the Lusitanian falcata, which descends from the Indo-European type. The shape of the guards, turned towards the blade, originates in Portuguese swords. The protecting ring and the (knuckle) guard that raises to the pommel were influenced by the Portuguese swords of the first half XVI century."

... Would you guys find this is plausible ?.

Ahhhh! The typical colonial discourse…the civilizing role of Europe into the rest of the (colonized) world...And today, even the colonial notions about an Indo-Aryan “conquest” are deeply questioned, the idea of the “heroic white people” taking control of Europe in a great epic saga, ahhhh, a beautiful story.

We have seen that the quillons turned toward the blade is a centuries old use among the Oriental peoples, and that the strongly downcurved quillons were used first (before the Portuguese or the Spanish peoples) by the Berbers, at least from the 13th Century, if not before. The fighting jineta sword illustrated above is from this century, and Ibrahiim also posted a picture showing that it is the older jineta already found (re: post #27, the Sangueza sword). And why the falcata is a Lusitania sword? As far I know, it is a Celtic-Iberian weapon, and the notion of “Portugal” or “Spain” did not exist in that time. Numerous findings of falcatas with horse-head hilts were also made in the actual territory of Spain.

In the 16th Century those swords were buried for more than 1,300 years, and the Portuguese even didn´t know them, maybe until the 19th or 20th Century, when archaeological discoveries bring them to the modern knowledge.

Berber or Moor raids into the Iberic Penisula were known at least from the roman times, but no evidence of those horse-head hilts is found in the pre-nimcha period in North Africa for more than a thousand years. But the use of animal headed hilts was common in this period in the Orient and surely the head of a horse was not an unknown feature among the cavalry-oriented Berbers.

This quote seems Portuguese-biased, who is the author? I have seem similar statements in Portuguese web sites. Very nationalistic. And why the knuckleguard would be influence of the Portuguese? Contrary to the Spanish, they didn’t have presence in North Africa in this century. In the 16th Century the Portuguese invasions to Morocco were defeated repeatedly by the Saadis, which also defeated the Ottoman intents. At the end of the 16th Century, Portugal became a Spanish dominion.

I lack of bibliography on Portuguese swords. I would like to see those with knuckleguards from the first half of the 16th Century, could you provide some examples?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Ahhhh! The typical colonial discourse…the civilizing role of Europe into the rest of the (colonized) worl...And today, even the colonial notions about an Indo-Aryan “conquest” are deeply questioned, the idea of the “heroic white people” taking control of Europe in a great epic saga, ahhhh, a beautiful story...

Sostenga sus caballos, Gonzalo
The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... We have seen that the quillons turned toward the blade is a centuries old use among the Oriental peoples, and that the strongly downcurved quillons were used first (before the Portuguese or the Spanish peoples) by the Berbers, at least from the 13th Century, if not before...

So true ... this not meaning that another people other than the one who first put up an implement, may adopt it, strictly or modified, and take it somewhere else, causing a new wave of influence. There even are records of such happenings, namely the case of ship cannon port holes, breech loading 'berços' cast system and other stuff ... what do i know?.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

And why the falcata is a Lusitania sword?...

And why need to ask ? We all know that such attribution is not correct; only in strict terms, that not in the ample reach of geographich context.
I just wonder how the author of such statement isn't also aware of that. But if he was, we wouldn't be here analizing such implausibilty ... although not one of the more screaming.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... As far I know, it is a Celtic-Iberian weapon ...

Although not at all a scholar, i have had my dosis of search on the so called Falcata Iberica, called Machaera Hispania by the Romans (as cited by Homero), and potentially descendent of the Helenic Kopis.
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... and the notion of “Portugal” or “Spain” did not exist in that time...

But 'soon' came the concept of Roman "Hispania", as they called the whole Peninsula; Portugal came much later indeed.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Numerous findings of falcatas with horse-head hilts were also made in the actual territory of Spain...

Horse head, bird head, undetermined grip, 'rectangular' grip without head ... Not only in Spain but in the whole Peninsula; there are currently dozens of sites with an excavated panoplia of these weapons and their paralel tipologies; i have seen (and saved) papers with enlightening charts.
... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...In the 16th Century those swords were buried for more than 1,300 years, and the Portuguese even didn´t know them, maybe until the 19th or 20th Century, when archaeological discoveries bring them to the modern knowledge.

The mentioned term was Lusitanian, not Portuguese... which makes a difference .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...This quote seems Portuguese-biased, who is the author? I have seem similar statements in Portuguese web sites. Very nationalistic...

There you go again. The author is not even Portuguese ...although he belongs in a family that has been in Portugal for almost three centuries. He certainly exacerbates on the Portuguese theme; but let it be his problem; we don't have to buy it, though.
Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period.

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... And why the knuckleguard would be influence of the Portuguese? Contrary to the Spanish, they didn’t have presence in North Africa. In the 16th Century the Portuguese invasions to Morocco were defeated repeatedly by the Saadis, which also defeated the Ottoman intents.

A fair point of view but, still only in the coast, as anyway Portuguese never had enough military contingents to impose presence in the interior, either in Africa or elsewhere, they built and inhabited fortifications in over half dozen spots in the Moroccan coast during some three centuries, which in any case is also a presence; enough for both cultures ending up 'contaminating' eachother ... at least potentially; one has to go out to the village for groceries and bring with him some local gadgets ... or eventually engage in battle and capture or let capture one or two weapons. Isn't that also how these things happen ? .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... At the end of the 16th Century, Portugal became a Spanish dominion.

... Which ended mid XVII century. But that was more of a monarchic issue; i don't think the Spaniards came over en masse. Notwithstanding cultural exhange already existed ... except for navigation and discoveries classified information, as often mentioned in chronicles .

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

...I lack of bibliography on Portuguese swords. I would like to see those with knuckleguards from the first half of the 16th Century, could you provide some examples?

Apart from the book i have been quoting, HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, which is not only about such swords, and with all possible tagging implausibilities, i only know of another one called AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, where also attributions may be discussable, on what touches the origin of swords being either Portuguese or Spanish; a common imprecision due to both countries interculture, namely or specially on what touches these weapons. That's why some authors prefer to attribute these swords the title of Iberian.
If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references.
... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ?


.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by Fernando

Have a look at this sword ... and read what the owner writes about it:

" The Moroccan Nimcha. A sabre of Portuguese influence. The handle with a shape of horse head is a remnant of the Lusitanian falcata, which descends from the Indo-European type. The shape of the guards, turned towards the blade, originates in Portuguese swords. The protecting ring and the (knuckle) guard that raises to the pommel were influenced by the Portuguese swords of the first half XVI century."

... Would you guys find this is plausible ?


.

Well, for one thing, I do not believe the pictured sword is Moroccan. I believe it is actually from East Africa, possibly Zanzibar. There was of course, significant Portuguese presence there, even more so than Morocco.

Since the description starts with an error in the attribution, it is kind of hard to accept the conclusions of the author without questioning them. That being said, the European influence is undeniable - the ring guard for example.

As for the dragon quillons on Ceylonese swords, one has to be careful prior to jumping to conclusions. I am attaching a picture of a Timurid (pre 1500) Central Asian nephrite sword guard from the Met collections. The kastane guard therefore could be Asian, and not European inspired.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Well, for one thing, I do not believe the pictured sword is Moroccan. I believe it is actually from East Africa, possibly Zanzibar. There was of course, significant Portuguese presence there, even more so than Morocco.

Since the description starts with an error in the attribution, it is kind of hard to accept the conclusions of the author without questioning them. That being said, the European influence is undeniable - the ring guard for example.

As for the dragon quillons on Ceylonese swords, one has to be careful prior to jumping to conclusions. I am attaching a picture of a Timurid (pre 1500) Central Asian nephrite sword guard from the Met collections. The kastane guard therefore could be Asian, and not European inspired.

Salaams TVV SEE #53. Indeed it is not Moroccan, but Zanzibari yes. As noted in #53.
Regarding hilts please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680

and the post I have just completed at # 67 above.

In reference to the hilt, guard, quilons and rainguard ... In fact the entire hilt and all of the Deities ...This is a purely Buddhist inspired item. but you could argue some likeness in the shape of the knuckle guard although others could counter it was simply parallel development ...I could live with similarities in the guard and of course the blades may be European but the rest of the sword is Sri Lankan with heavy notes of Buddhism in the hilt.