Strange Mendak on Yogyakarta Keris

David · 18th July 2017, 07:24 PM

Thanks Athanase, those are definitely better photos which may or may not attract a new round of speculation.
I still see some problems with the sogokan in these new shots of course. I can also certainly see the greneng better in these latest pictures though i will leave any judgement of that to others.
Curious that someone would take the take to make possible adjustments to the kembang kacang, greneng, tikel alis and sogokan and then leave the edge of the blade all raggedy like that. You would think if they were going to do all that other work they would "fix" the edge as well.

I still like this keris despite its blemishes and foibles.

A. G. Maisey · 18th July 2017, 11:39 PM

Thank you Athanase for these new photographs.

We now have material that in my opinion has turned this thread into perhaps one of the most valuable threads in recent times.

Firstly, let me say this:-

WRONG WRONG WRONG:- MAISEY WAS WRONG

These new photos permit me to form a much better, and much more accurate opinion of the keris. David opined that we needed better photos, I should have listened to him, he's a pro, I'm not. I thought I could see enough to make legitimate comment from the original fotos. I was wrong.

So now I'll start again.

This is definitely an old blade, it has not been altered, added to nor detracted from in any way, however, the level of craftsmanship is somewhat less than good.

My comments in my previous post were incorrect in many respects, and this is one of the things that makes this a valuable thread:- we all need very good photographs to give any idea at all of what we are looking at. I thought I could see sufficient from the original photos : I could not.

In these new pics I can see exactly the degree of erosion that I would expect on an old blade, if we look at the erosion on the blade edges we can see that from the 4th luk to the point the edges are ragged. This tells us that the blade has been hardened from the point to the mid-point of the 4th luk, proof positive of age. Very, very few current era blades are ever hardened, and the form of erosion on this blade indicates natural erosion, not forced erosion.

The sogokan is now much more clear. It is not well done, but it is correctly done, the poyuhan was correctly sculpted, and loss of form can be put down to age.

The tikel alis:- clean, clear well formed, original.

The gandhik is very well sculpted, but at the expense of stealing material from the kembang kacang, which would have been rather slight, even when new.

The greneng is the big surprise to me:- it is correctly cut, the man who cut it knew what he was doing, but his level of knowledge was at pandai level, not mpu level. He has cut correct Mataram rondha, but has cut them poorly, and the complete greneng says less than it should. It was a major error on my part to try to read the greneng from the original pics.

Taking everything into consideration, I am inclined to give this keris as HB (yaitu Hamengkubuwana, atau Yogya).

Overall, it is a nice old keris.

I've learned a good lesson from this, and I hope we have all learned that decent photos can make a world of difference in an opinion.

ATHANASE
Re your photo difficulties.
If you have north facing windows looking out onto trees, and you are in the Northern Hemisphere --- which of course you are --- you are in an ideal situation to take very good keris or other photos.
I'm not a pro, as is David, but I have been taking keris photos for a very long time. I'm in the Southern Hemisphere and my situation is exactly similar to yours:- south facing windows looking out onto trees.
My suggestions to you would be to shoot from a tripod, use remote release, use a neutral backcloth, use bounce boards (three ply faced with aluminium foil) to throw light onto your subject. In processing you will probably always find that the image will improve by removing cyan. Sharpen. Never use a flash. To me, these are the essentials, anything else can be an extra.

Athanase · 28th March 2023, 10:14 PM

Hello,

I am digging up this old thread because while leafing through the catalog of the Charle Buttin collection I realized that the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection.
The dapur and the lengh of the blade (37cm) is the same and the very strange mendak/selut seems to be identical.

What do you think ?

milandro · 29th March 2023, 11:20 AM

it certainly looks like that and I can't help to feel that replacing the selut, mendak might have been hasty

kai · 29th March 2023, 02:49 PM

No, this just proves that the mistake was done a bit earlier...

I assume that Séverin kept the old selut with this keris for future reference and, thus, preserving the history. Still, the current mendak is culturally way more appropriate.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 29th March 2023, 02:58 PM

Hello Séverin,

Quote:

the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection.

Good catch! The resolution of the catalog pic is not that great and the puyohan seems to be not clearly visible; also the kembang kacang might be sitting at a steeper angle (easily affected by photographic angles though).

However, the overall similarity and the selut seem to be pretty convincing. Things do get around...

Regards,
Kai

milandro · 29th March 2023, 04:13 PM

I am sure that, based on the majority rule, the latter mendak is more culturally appropriate... BUT the first selut may have been coming down to us, through time, since it was dressed for the first time, possibly unaltered, and YET we would be changing it to fit criteria that may or may nor have been shared by the first person dressing that kris.

Sometimes I feel that people who came after the events or the artefacts tend to be way more orthodox than the people who were there at the time that things happened or were made.

Athanase · 29th March 2023, 10:36 PM

It seems to me that I have kept old Selut in a corner.

I'm not sure that the Selut was Indonesian.
It may be a European creation that awkwardly imitates the Indonesian Seluts to replace the missing mendak.

David · 29th March 2023, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athanase

It seems to me that I have kept old Selut in a corner.

I'm not sure that the Selut was Indonesian.
It may be a European creation that awkwardly imitates the Indonesian Seluts to replace the missing mendak.

Well, as i look back on this thread it seems that i was one of the first to suggest that this selut was possibly from outside the cultural, but i have to say that i am not quite as certain now. I don't know if this thread predates when this patrem came into my collection, but my understanding is that this particular keris came straight out of the culture, so it would not have been affected by European or other outside influences. While is mendak/selut (not really sure what to call it) is not quite the same as the one on your keris it does seem to be in the same "family" in a way. You should at least be able to see way your keris put me in mind of it.
Of course my understanding of the patrem (though i am not really sure about this) is that they don't necessary have to meet the same standards as a regular keris does in regards to dress and form. But i believe this example might perhaps at least put a foot in the door for the argument that your selut may have originated in Jawa.
That said i still believe that the more standard mendak you have replaced it with is a better fit for your keris.

28th March 2023, 10:14 PM	#3
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	Hello, I am digging up this old thread because while leafing through the catalog of the Charle Buttin collection I realized that the Keris of this thread is perhaps the n°858 of the Charle Buttin collection. The dapur and the lengh of the blade (37cm) is the same and the very strange mendak/selut seems to be identical. What do you think ? Attached Images

18th July 2017, 07:24 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,237	Thanks Athanase, those are definitely better photos which may or may not attract a new round of speculation. I still see some problems with the sogokan in these new shots of course. I can also certainly see the greneng better in these latest pictures though i will leave any judgement of that to others. Curious that someone would take the take to make possible adjustments to the kembang kacang, greneng, tikel alis and sogokan and then leave the edge of the blade all raggedy like that. You would think if they were going to do all that other work they would "fix" the edge as well. I still like this keris despite its blemishes and foibles.

18th July 2017, 11:39 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thank you Athanase for these new photographs. We now have material that in my opinion has turned this thread into perhaps one of the most valuable threads in recent times. Firstly, let me say this:- WRONG WRONG WRONG:- MAISEY WAS WRONG These new photos permit me to form a much better, and much more accurate opinion of the keris. David opined that we needed better photos, I should have listened to him, he's a pro, I'm not. I thought I could see enough to make legitimate comment from the original fotos. I was wrong. So now I'll start again. This is definitely an old blade, it has not been altered, added to nor detracted from in any way, however, the level of craftsmanship is somewhat less than good. My comments in my previous post were incorrect in many respects, and this is one of the things that makes this a valuable thread:- we all need very good photographs to give any idea at all of what we are looking at. I thought I could see sufficient from the original photos : I could not. In these new pics I can see exactly the degree of erosion that I would expect on an old blade, if we look at the erosion on the blade edges we can see that from the 4th luk to the point the edges are ragged. This tells us that the blade has been hardened from the point to the mid-point of the 4th luk, proof positive of age. Very, very few current era blades are ever hardened, and the form of erosion on this blade indicates natural erosion, not forced erosion. The sogokan is now much more clear. It is not well done, but it is correctly done, the poyuhan was correctly sculpted, and loss of form can be put down to age. The tikel alis:- clean, clear well formed, original. The gandhik is very well sculpted, but at the expense of stealing material from the kembang kacang, which would have been rather slight, even when new. The greneng is the big surprise to me:- it is correctly cut, the man who cut it knew what he was doing, but his level of knowledge was at pandai level, not mpu level. He has cut correct Mataram rondha, but has cut them poorly, and the complete greneng says less than it should. It was a major error on my part to try to read the greneng from the original pics. Taking everything into consideration, I am inclined to give this keris as HB (yaitu Hamengkubuwana, atau Yogya). Overall, it is a nice old keris. I've learned a good lesson from this, and I hope we have all learned that decent photos can make a world of difference in an opinion. ATHANASE Re your photo difficulties. If you have north facing windows looking out onto trees, and you are in the Northern Hemisphere --- which of course you are --- you are in an ideal situation to take very good keris or other photos. I'm not a pro, as is David, but I have been taking keris photos for a very long time. I'm in the Southern Hemisphere and my situation is exactly similar to yours:- south facing windows looking out onto trees. My suggestions to you would be to shoot from a tripod, use remote release, use a neutral backcloth, use bounce boards (three ply faced with aluminium foil) to throw light onto your subject. In processing you will probably always find that the image will improve by removing cyan. Sharpen. Never use a flash. To me, these are the essentials, anything else can be an extra.

29th March 2023, 11:20 AM	#4
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 497	it certainly looks like that and I can't help to feel that replacing the selut, mendak might have been hasty

29th March 2023, 02:49 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	No, this just proves that the mistake was done a bit earlier... I assume that Séverin kept the old selut with this keris for future reference and, thus, preserving the history. Still, the current mendak is culturally way more appropriate. Regards, Kai

29th March 2023, 04:13 PM	#7
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 497	I am sure that, based on the majority rule, the latter mendak is more culturally appropriate... BUT the first selut may have been coming down to us, through time, since it was dressed for the first time, possibly unaltered, and YET we would be changing it to fit criteria that may or may nor have been shared by the first person dressing that kris. Sometimes I feel that people who came after the events or the artefacts tend to be way more orthodox than the people who were there at the time that things happened or were made.

29th March 2023, 10:36 PM	#8
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	It seems to me that I have kept old Selut in a corner. I'm not sure that the Selut was Indonesian. It may be a European creation that awkwardly imitates the Indonesian Seluts to replace the missing mendak.