Islamic bow for I.D. and comment

[Philip]

Thanks, Gonzalo, for referencing that film. You might be interested in hunting down a copy of THE DIARY OF A MANCHU SOLDIER IN 17TH-CENT. CHINA, which is a translation by Nicola di Cosmo of a handwritten diary by a soldier named Dzengseo of his experience on campaign against Ming rebels in the southwest near the Burma frontier (Routledge: NY, also in UK/Canada, 2006).

The journal provides many references to the role of archery in battles of the era, particularly in conjunction with the deployment of firearms and artillery. It is important to note that the Manchus, though holding up the bow and arrow as cultural icons, made ample use of firearms in their conquest of China, and their successful campaigns against hostile Mongol tribes, in Central Asia, and the Himalayas. (the only non-Chinese foe they faced which had an equally firm grounding in the use of guns were the Vietnamese, and for various reasons they didn't fare well against them).

From the onset, the Manchus had ready access to muskets and cannons thanks to large formations of disaffected Ming Dynasty troops who joined their cause, along with small numbers of Korean and even Cossack war captives who were absorbed into the Banners. It is also worth noting that the Ottomans, though they excelled at archery, utilized firearms from the mid-15th cent. onwards; their use of massive siege artillery at Constantinople in 1453 (provided thanks to the expertise of a mercenary Hungarian), is notable for not only its ultimate success but its early adoption by an Eastern culture.

Dzengseo's combat experience as recorded in the diary amply illustrates the perfect fit of the Manchu bow to the preferred battle tactics, which emphasized shooting individual opponents from the saddle, in keeping with the hunting methods perfected in Northeast Asia. ( In another thread (the one about an Algerian musket) I commented on remarks about cavalry firepower made by a British officer during the Peninsular War, which you may find relevant to this discussion as well. ) Volley fire with Manchu bows was not the norm, although the diary does describe its use in repelling a charge by war elephants.

As regards to your comments about missile velocity and range, I can offer the analogy of my experience with shooting high-powered rifles. A cartridge such as .222 Remington sends small light bullets zinging along at dazzling speeds, the trajectory is flat and accuracy at far distances is wonderful to behold. But deflection by crosswinds, or plant growth in the field, affect light projectiles more, and air friction reduces energy at longer ranges as well. A round like .458 Winchester has a massive slug that travels more like a heavy truck than a race car, but boy does it pack a punch -- just what you need to put down that bull moose. It all boils down to physics, no matter if it involves arrows or bullets.

[estcrh]

This is a great representation of a Chinese soldier.

Portrait of a Chinese Imperial Bodyguard (Zhanyinbao), with archery equipment and wearing a sheathed dao (1760). This full-length depiction of an imperial bodyguard of the first rank is from a set of one hundred portraits of loyal officials and valiant warriors commissioned by the Qianlong emperor (r. 1736–95) that originally hung in the Hall of Imperial Brilliance (Ziguang Ge), the pavilion in the Forbidden City where the emperor received tribute offerings and entertained foreign emissaries.

[Philip]

Thanks for sharing this image!

An interesting aside is the position of the saber in its scabbard, hung so that its hilt faces the rear, to avoid getting tangled with the bow in its case, which faces forward. This is typical Manchu practice.

It actually makes for an efficient draw of the blade, since the soldier would have to rotate the lower part of the scabbard rearward with the left hand, and his right will be grasping the hilt for an EDGE UP draw. With the saber fully out, he can cut in any direction as opposed to an edge-down draw, which requires an additional twist of the wrist to deploy the weapon's edge against an opponent. It is for this very reason that many Eastern swords are worn edge-up in a sash (katana, yataghan), or slung on a belt in such way to permit this kind of draw (the shashka is a prime example). If you have a sheathed kilij or shamshir without is suspension cords, try rigging up your own suspension and you will find that these sabers tend to hang in a peculiar angle with the edge up and slightly outward from the side of the body. Factoring in the deep curve of many of these, it makes for a very ergonomic draw!

[estcrh]

Philip, thanks so much for sharing some of your Chinese archery knowledge. Here is a Chinese bow I recently bought, waiting for it to arrive.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This is a great representation of a Chinese soldier.

Portrait of a Chinese Imperial Bodyguard (Zhanyinbao), with archery equipment and wearing a sheathed dao (1760). This full-length depiction of an imperial bodyguard of the first rank is from a set of one hundred portraits of loyal officials and valiant warriors commissioned by the Qianlong emperor (r. 1736–95) that originally hung in the Hall of Imperial Brilliance (Ziguang Ge), the pavilion in the Forbidden City where the emperor received tribute offerings and entertained foreign emissaries.

Estcrh, thank you for sharing this image and the photo of your bow. It is nice to see that kind of weapons. I wonder if your bow can be still used. Though I understand that special care must be given to the limbs if you try to put a string over an old bow. A risky procedure.
Do you have an idea of the age of your bow?
Regards

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Estcrh, thank you for sharing this image and the photo of your bow. It is nice to see that kind of weapons. I wonder if your bow can be still used. Though I understand that special care must be given to the limbs if you try to put a string over an old bow. A risky procedure.
Do you have an idea of the age of your bow?
Regards

Gonzalo, I have wondered about that myself, but I would not take the risk of cracking it. It is a Chinese composite bow, early 19th century, 36 inches long, 16 inches wide.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you for your response and the measures. Yes, it´s better to stay on the safe side and don't force those old limbs. It is a valuable and beautiful piece.
Regards

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Thank you for your response and the measures. Yes, it´s better to stay on the safe side and don't force those old limbs. It is a valuable and beautiful piece.
Regards

Wise advice, Gonzalo. Stringing a composite bow calls for its own techniques. Do you have Paul E Klopsteg's TURKISH ARCHERY AND THE COMPOSITE BOW (Manchester University, Museum: 1934 repr 1987)? Practically everything you wanted to know about design, manufacture, history, performance, and shooting techniques involving Ottoman bows, with comparative notes in an appendix with mention of Chinese, Korean, and modern (as of the 1930s) longbows. A lot of the material is excerpted from old Turkish manuals and the notes are mostly by archers who traveled and observed.

The info includes detailed instructions on stringing, and the appendix notes also explain how ambient temperature must be taken into account in order to do it safely with "difficult" bows.

[estcrh]

Thanks to Philip, Peter and a few other individuals, in the last few years a lot of information on Chinese archery and Chinese weapons in general has become available to learn from, both as images and text.

Something not often seen is good closeup images of Chinese arrows, here is an example of a Chinese bow with arrows.

Composite Chinese Bow and Arrows

A nice find: A complete 19C. Chinese bow with 10 arrows. The bow is of the composite structure, 43 inches long, 21 inches wide. The edges as well as the edges are covered with ray skin, dyed in green and white, and inlaid with antelope and bird also cut from ray skin. The arrows are long, 35 inches each with steel blades and long feathered tails.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Philip

Do you have Paul E Klopsteg's TURKISH ARCHERY AND THE COMPOSITE BOW (Manchester University, Museum: 1934 repr 1987)? Practically everything you wanted to know about design, manufacture, history, performance, and shooting techniques involving Ottoman bows, with comparative notes in an appendix with mention of Chinese, Korean, and modern (as of the 1930s) longbows. A lot of the material is excerpted from old Turkish manuals and the notes are mostly by archers who traveled and observed.

The info includes detailed instructions on stringing, and the appendix notes also explain how ambient temperature must be taken into account in order to do it safely with "difficult" bows.

No, Philip. I didn't have it and I have nor read it. Thanks to you, I just get one copy. And I would appreciate more recommendations from you on the matter of historic archery, how to make and use historic bows and related subjects. Thank you. I appreciate very much all the advice and guidance I can get from the people whom I share this kind of inclinations for the historic weapons. Unfortunately, where I live I don't have the oppotunity to access many items and that imposes me several limitations.

My best regards

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Estcrh, thank you for sharing this image and the photo of your bow. It is nice to see that kind of weapons. I wonder if your bow can be still used. Though I understand that special care must be given to the limbs if you try to put a string over an old bow. A risky procedure.
Do you have an idea of the age of your bow?
Regards

Somewhere in my reading I encountered an old Turkish adage stating that the lifetime of a bow is twice that of a man. 'Have been looking through my references for the citation but haven't found it yet, will advise when I do. A lot of my knowledge of these things comes from a colleague, Peter Dekker in Amsterdam, I have forwarded this thread to him and hope that he will contribute something soon.

We both know a fellow in Taiwan who makes Manchu bows in the traditional style, and what's more, is able to restore the performance capabilities of antique bows (that is, assuming that the organic materials have not been consumed by rot, or riddled by insect or worm). It seems that on old bows, what tends to fail with age is the animal or fish glue that holds the laminae together -- exactly the problem that plagues antique string instruments as well. Renew that, with the proper level of skill, and a bow can be brought back to life! Some of these glues can also be rejuvenated in themselves, without having to replace them with modern material (violin restorers do the same thing). Hopefully Mr Dekker will chime in soon on this thread with a more detailed explanation.

I haven't shot any of these old bows myself, but have handled a good number of these in collections. More than a few appear to have been damaged by idiots who have tried to bend them in the WRONG direction. You can tell from looking at what points the laminations have separated.
Haha, on one occasion a collector who showed me his damaged bow told me that's exactly what a "friend" of his tried to do. These weapons were not designed to flex "either way"!

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Philip

Thanks, Gonzalo, for referencing that film. You might be interested in hunting down a copy of THE DIARY OF A MANCHU SOLDIER IN 17TH-CENT. CHINA, which is a translation by Nicola di Cosmo of a handwritten diary by a soldier named Dzengseo of his experience on campaign against Ming rebels in the southwest near the Burma frontier (Routledge: NY, also in UK/Canada, 2006).

Actually the campaign was called the War of the Three Feudatories (1673–1682), developed mainly in Yunnan, Guizhou and Guangxi. Very interesting book, thank you for remind it to me.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Philip

As regards to your comments about missile velocity and range, I can offer the analogy of my experience with shooting high-powered rifles. A cartridge such as .222 Remington sends small light bullets zinging along at dazzling speeds, the trajectory is flat and accuracy at far distances is wonderful to behold. But deflection by crosswinds, or plant growth in the field, affect light projectiles more, and air friction reduces energy at longer ranges as well. A round like .458 Winchester has a massive slug that travels more like a heavy truck than a race car, but boy does it pack a punch -- just what you need to put down that bull moose. It all boils down to physics, no matter if it involves arrows or bullets.

I agree on that. That's why I prefer a .45 auto or a .40 S&W over a 9mm pistol. But the penetration power over armour is another thing. I conducted tests with a .260 Remington and a .308 Wichester, among other calibers, over manganese steel sheets. The smaller, but faster .260 had more penetration. On the other hand, the Mongols and Turks did use the tactic of shooting in volleys, so precision was not so important as in close range.
Regards