ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[A. G. Maisey]

The navajas I was talking about were all old ones, i recall one had a horn handle, and the horn was separating because of age and neglect. I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread.

As I have said, I have no expert knowledge of navajas, and very little interest, but I do have a background in custom knifemaking and I was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for about 12 years. My opinion of these knives as a maker is that they needed an effective method of locking the blade in place, and when these things first appeared it is unlikely that good spring steel was a practical application. I would guess that the very early ancestors of navajas were like a lot of early folders, no backspring, no locking mechanism. A lot of Italian folders are made like this even today.

The blade in a folder without a spring or locking mechanism can be made with an extension that comes down onto the back of the handle when the blade is open, and the hand holds the blade open, but this design is far from a secure lock. Probably when it became possible for small pieces of spring steel to be used the cheapest and most practical method was the notch on the back of the blade locking into a sprung catch. The ratchet would have followed this.

That's the way I look at it as a maker:- a simple, cheap, mechanical fix. Totally practical for somebody working with simple technology and tools.

[Chris Evans]

A. G. Maisey:

I had never thought of navajas as small folders until I read the remarks in this thread

Well, "small" is a relative term and I did qualify it by quoting Forton's 6"-9"range for average size.

Whilst they did come in all sizes, from very small to gigantic, my remarks were in relation to the big navajas that many collectors wrongly believe were meant for use.

With all this said, we are still no closer to knowing the intended function of the ratchet.

Cheers
Chris

[Rick]

I thought some might enjoy this related image.

[Lee]

Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, you're right Chris.

Intended function of ratchet?

Prevents accidental closure of blade.

[Chris Evans]

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out.

The size of the navaja on the ground is consistent with the majority in use, according to Forton.

Lee:

Your navaja’s style is consistent of those made in the 19th century in the city of Albacete. It has what we call a pick-lock, meaning that the backspring has to be manually lifted upwards to disengage from the lock notch in the blade. These were superseded by the ring lock around 1875, so yours is earlier.

A.G. Maisey:



That is the role of the engagement notch in the blade and not of the ratchet teeth.

Most modern navajas of the traditional pattern do not feature the ratchet and have a simple engagement notch in the heel of the blade so as to secure it in the open position.

As suggested earlier, the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch. Or, its main function is to prevent the navaja from being opened easily, unintentionally or intentionally as by being flicked open.

In Forton's 490 page in depth study of the navaja, which dedicates a whole chapter to the technicalities of this knife, mention is made of the ratchet stating that it is a variant of the plain `window' lock and that it appeared in the 18th century, but without giving any reason for its raison d'etre. This I find noteworthy, because Forton knew navajas extremely well and must have felt that its intended function is lost in the mist of time.

Cheers
Chris


.

[A. G. Maisey]

With my most humble apologies Chris, I beg to disagree that the role of notch and latch is to prevent accidental closure of the blade.

The role of the notch and latch is to lock the blade into position.

However, if that positive lock is not effectively made when the blade is initially opened, what occurs is accidental closure. Similarly, if the latch is accidentally or intentionally knocked the notch becomes disengaged and again we have accidental closure.

The mechanical function of any ratchet system is to permit incremental opening or closing of a loaded body. The blade of the navaja is loaded by virtue of its weight, it relies totally on the notch and latch to keep it in place. Failure of proper engagement of the notch into the latch by whatever cause will free the blade and cause damage to the hand of the user. Use of a ratchet system that will permit an incremental closure will provide a degree of protection to the user.

Risk management Chris. Just that. People have always managed risk, and this is the way they managed the risk of a loosely swinging blade in an unlocked navaja.

This entire question is actually an engineering question. I don't see it as a cultural question, or a question connected with the inherent categorisation of collecting, but rather the type of question that could be put to a design engineer , even today.

As has already been said:- "--- the ratchet may form a kind of a backup in case the back-spring for some reason disengages from the blade notch.---".

I've said exactly the same thing but in different words. In fact, my initial five word opinion is in agreement with the previous comment.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

...That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out...

A little preciousness ... if i may, Chris . The term 'Venta' has a double meaning, both in castillian and portuguese; in this context would not mean 'sale', but a place where women would buy groceries and men would spend time drinking and playing cards, or the like; a sort of tavern. This would make it more consistent with the legend of the dwarf:


Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil.

in a strict translation:


Apparently there was
In Candil's 'tavern'
A dwarf that had
Voice equivalent to a thousand.

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Rick:

That painting is titled `El Enano De La Venta’ (The Dwarf Of Sale) by Antonio Medina and is located in the Museo Taurino De Madrid.

`The Dwarf Of Sale’ is a quaint popular expression that is based on a fictional personality and which is used to describe a person who makes bombastic threats but cannot carry them out...

Just a little note, if i may, Chris; in this context, the term 'Venta' refers to a 'Inn' (sort of boarding house). In fact, the legend poem says:

"Parece que antes había
En la venta del Candil
Un enano que tenía
Voz equivalente a mil".

As if the bragging dwarf freqüented a determined Inn, that of Candil.

I accidently see that the term appears often in Cervantes work where, for one, Dom Quixote envisions all Ventas as Castles.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Lee

Here is a very well worn and nibbled upon navaja that I bought last year at the Brimfield flea market for $25. I have been using it to open envelopes. It is about 9½ inches long closed and the blade is about 7¼ inches long. It is loose enough now that you can close it without lifting the latch, but each ratchet point does engage and give some resistance. Put your thumb over the latch and fingers naturally around the horn scales and the blade is securely open. I prefer this design to the pull ring clasp style that was reputedly derived from it. I'd welcome any comments as to how long this old knife may have been around.

An excelent example Lee; a genuine one for an amazing price. I guess the pull ring clasp version ended up giving place to the 'the last of mohicans' of these mechanisms; one certainly made for purposes more directed to tourists other than villagers. Another system was that like the one of your example but with a lever to easier operate the opening. This was the system that i got used to see around since my youth; the main weakness was that the lever was rather feeble and worn out very quickly.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm out of this discussion now, I've pretty much said a lot more than I wanted to say anyway. We now have a group of people who are conversant with the subject and the culture, and I want to escape this thread.

However --- Fernando you raised a question that I think I should in all fairness respond to for you. Bear in mind, I have approached this question of the ratchet not from a cultural nor from a societal base, but purely from the perspective of a maker who does have some understanding of knife and tool design relative to engineering principles.

You have said:- "--- i fail to digest that the multiple crack is a back up to the main notch; why would you have four, five or six back ups all in a row ?. On the other hand i can easily accept that, the knives with one only notch are those for domestic utility, while those with multiple cracks have a lethal vocation.---"

The multiple teeth found on this ratchet are not there as a back-up in case of failure of the lock notch, but rather to prevent immediate closure of a sharp blade onto the fingers of the user:- in a case where the blade notch is dislodged from the latch, that blade will decline towards the handle, the multiple teeth on the ratchet provide a longer length of interference on closure, and thus a better chance --- in fact multiple better chances --- of stopping blade closure prior to contact with fingers.

You have noted that navajas as tools have only the notch & latch, but larger navajas, possibly intended as weapons do have the ratchet.

In old treatises on knife fighting, and on fencing with a sword, what we find is that especially in knife fighting techniques we are in fact looking at free-style fist fighting or free-style wrestling, but with a knife in one hand (or maybe both).

The knife does not get used independent of the rest of the body, nope, the whole body is involved in getting the knife to where it is intended to be. This means that the hand that does not hold the knife is also engaged in combat. That empty hand is sometimes used to grasp the knife hand of the opponent.

If there are treatises specifically on fighting with a navaja, I feel that close examination of these treatises might reveal that one of the combat techniques used in combat with a navaja was for the empty hand to grasp the opponent's knife hand and trip the latch on disengagement. The ratchet prevented complete disengagement which meant that a navaja with ratchet provided a preventive measure against such a technique.

Now I'm out of this discussion. You gentlemen with a genuine cultural interest are far better equipped to discuss this important matter than am I.

[Gonzalo G]

Mr. Maisey,

I find your contributions very sensible and useful. I am personally interested in the "engineering" aspects on the construction of edged weapons and your reasonings on this subject are specially valuable to me and for certain are also very interesting to everybody. The matter of this thread is the function of the ratchet mechanism on the navajas de carraca, and it was examined from different points of view, since this subject admits it, given the common beliefs existing around this mechanism. I completely agree with your perspective and your statements and I don´t find they have less cultural interest than the historical and legal perspectives. After all, the technology is part of a given culture and your comments contribute to shed a valuable light on this topic.
Regards