Nice karabela hitled shamshir

ham · 9th March 2006, 05:56 PM

It should be borne in mind that the Khevsur are Georgians, albeit mountain dwellers. The familiar Khevsur sword mounted in strips of silver or brass (and later, even aluminium) is one type. However it is predated by the form of the sword Ariel didn't get. This was popular in Georgian urban centers and was adopted from the Persians-- I am sure Astvatsaturian shows examples in Weapons of the Caucasian Peoples...? Don't have a copy with me this time.

The grip is not replaced, it is a characteristic example actually. Other than the odious recovering, which seems to represent some government directive carried out on every piece to exit the former Soviet states since Gorbachev, it is of the correct form-- this includes the mounts which, though crude, are traditional.

Ham

ariel · 9th March 2006, 11:17 PM

You are right: Khevsuri, Georgian and Daghestani sabers (of the so-called Iranian type) did overlap: after all Khevsurs straddle the border between Georgia proper and Daghestan.
Here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan
:
#1: Khevsur saber and Palash
#2:Georgian sabers
#3-4: Daghestani swords (sabers included)

All have "shamshir" type handles that, unlike Persians are oval in section and get progressively more narrow toward the pommel.
There is no argument: they look quite alike. But look at the belt rings of the sword in question: they are not round like Khevsuri, but "heart shaped" like Daghestani. The vegetal pattern on the crossguard and the drag are Daghestani, not Khevsuri, in my mind: the latter used crosses and just multiple points.
The handle looks authentic in superficial form but is far too intact, shiny, and the rivets are covered with horn buttons. Those should have fallen out long ago. Astvatsaturyan specifically mentions that Daghestani sabers only rarely had horn handles and that the handles often had an image of dog's, horse's or dragon's head carved into the end of the pommel. It is not there, and the tip is not "capped". The blade has no markings. Even though it looks real, the absense of markings is suspicious on the blades from this part of the world.
Overall, I have far too many doubts about this sword: it is partly authentic but there is too much uncertainty and too many nagging suspicions and inconsistensies about it. If I bought it, I would have looked at it time and time again and trusted it less and less.
One of my colleagues once married a stripper. Divorced her in 6 months to a year at very high financial cost. A cautionary tale for impulsive e-bay buyers.....
On the other hand, look at the ivory-hilted saber on pic. #2: its twin recently sold on e-bay, and I missed it...... A real Georgian saber made by Purunsuzov or Eliarov at the beginning of the 19th century in Akhaltsikhe. I am still kicking myself......

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 03:49 AM

Getting back to the karabela being discussed here, I am inclined to agree with Ham, this floral guard seems cast. I also am inclined to this being quite possibly a modern product or furbishing of components done most likely in India.
Regardless of where it was made or when, one cannot overlook the innate beauty of a karabela sabre. I have seen a modern interpretation of one of these crafted in Poland, and the high quality of the work certainly reflected the deep pride with which these historic sabres are held in thier country.

Outstanding discussion on the Khevsur swords!!! I think it's excellent that we're finally getting some awareness and sound knowledge on these swords that were relatively unknown just over ten years ago.

Best regards,
Jim

ham · 10th March 2006, 06:34 AM

Well said, Jim.
Members like yourself, Yannis and others have really opened up the subject of Khevsur arms and kept it going. Bravo
Ariel, regarding this Khevsur sword-- it is such late work, you can't really abstract and attribute characteristics like the shape of the rings on the suspension bands anymore-- they are probably gas-welded on, in any case. It's a hodgepodge of elements. With this in mind however, it does shows some Kubachi influence as you suggest.

Ham

ariel · 10th March 2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Well said, Jim.
Members like yourself, Yannis and others have really opened up the subject of Khevsur arms and kept it going. Bravo
Ariel, regarding this Khevsur sword-- it is such late work, you can't really abstract and attribute characteristics like the shape of the rings on the suspension bands anymore-- they are probably gas-welded on, in any case. It's a hodgepodge of elements. With this in mind however, it does shows some Kubachi influence as you suggest.

Ham

Now we are getting somewhere.
Glad you agree that the sword in question is recent, hodge-podge and suspect. That was exactly my point and I likely did not get it across very well.
At the end of the day I am glad I managed to get a grip on myself at the last moment and did not throw money away on that insane purchase.
The "ivory hilted" one is another story altogether...... Any chance to turn the clock back? Time machine, anyone?

9th March 2006, 05:56 PM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	It should be borne in mind that the Khevsur are Georgians, albeit mountain dwellers. The familiar Khevsur sword mounted in strips of silver or brass (and later, even aluminium) is one type. However it is predated by the form of the sword Ariel didn't get. This was popular in Georgian urban centers and was adopted from the Persians-- I am sure Astvatsaturian shows examples in Weapons of the Caucasian Peoples...? Don't have a copy with me this time. The grip is not replaced, it is a characteristic example actually. Other than the odious recovering, which seems to represent some government directive carried out on every piece to exit the former Soviet states since Gorbachev, it is of the correct form-- this includes the mounts which, though crude, are traditional. Ham

9th March 2006, 11:17 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are right: Khevsuri, Georgian and Daghestani sabers (of the so-called Iranian type) did overlap: after all Khevsurs straddle the border between Georgia proper and Daghestan. Here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan : #1: Khevsur saber and Palash #2:Georgian sabers #3-4: Daghestani swords (sabers included) All have "shamshir" type handles that, unlike Persians are oval in section and get progressively more narrow toward the pommel. There is no argument: they look quite alike. But look at the belt rings of the sword in question: they are not round like Khevsuri, but "heart shaped" like Daghestani. The vegetal pattern on the crossguard and the drag are Daghestani, not Khevsuri, in my mind: the latter used crosses and just multiple points. The handle looks authentic in superficial form but is far too intact, shiny, and the rivets are covered with horn buttons. Those should have fallen out long ago. Astvatsaturyan specifically mentions that Daghestani sabers only rarely had horn handles and that the handles often had an image of dog's, horse's or dragon's head carved into the end of the pommel. It is not there, and the tip is not "capped". The blade has no markings. Even though it looks real, the absense of markings is suspicious on the blades from this part of the world. Overall, I have far too many doubts about this sword: it is partly authentic but there is too much uncertainty and too many nagging suspicions and inconsistensies about it. If I bought it, I would have looked at it time and time again and trusted it less and less. One of my colleagues once married a stripper. Divorced her in 6 months to a year at very high financial cost. A cautionary tale for impulsive e-bay buyers..... On the other hand, look at the ivory-hilted saber on pic. #2: its twin recently sold on e-bay, and I missed it...... A real Georgian saber made by Purunsuzov or Eliarov at the beginning of the 19th century in Akhaltsikhe. I am still kicking myself...... Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 10th March 2006 at 01:23 AM.

10th March 2006, 03:49 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Getting back to the karabela being discussed here, I am inclined to agree with Ham, this floral guard seems cast. I also am inclined to this being quite possibly a modern product or furbishing of components done most likely in India. Regardless of where it was made or when, one cannot overlook the innate beauty of a karabela sabre. I have seen a modern interpretation of one of these crafted in Poland, and the high quality of the work certainly reflected the deep pride with which these historic sabres are held in thier country. Outstanding discussion on the Khevsur swords!!! I think it's excellent that we're finally getting some awareness and sound knowledge on these swords that were relatively unknown just over ten years ago. Best regards, Jim

10th March 2006, 06:34 AM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Well said, Jim. Members like yourself, Yannis and others have really opened up the subject of Khevsur arms and kept it going. Bravo Ariel, regarding this Khevsur sword-- it is such late work, you can't really abstract and attribute characteristics like the shape of the rings on the suspension bands anymore-- they are probably gas-welded on, in any case. It's a hodgepodge of elements. With this in mind however, it does shows some Kubachi influence as you suggest. Ham