Nice karabela hitled shamshir

[ham]

Thank you for adding your voice to this matter, Rick.
I consider it an important endorsement of the truth.

I hope the new owner of the sword under discussion has something potent on hand. I suspect he is going to need it.

Next up: eggs-- which end does the well-informed individual open first?
Guest lecturer: Jonathan Swift

Ham

[ariel]

And now... for something completely different.
Here is another one that just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
I love Caucasian weapons and always wanted to get a Daghestani sword (not shashka). And here was the one I wanted!
However, I was a bit uncomfortable: the handle did not seem right. Daghestani swords rarely used horn, their pommels usually ended with a carved horse, dog or dragon , and this particular one looked kind of.... new. I contacted the seller and he assured me that it was original. Well....The blade looks overcleaned although there are traces of false damascening within the fullers
What do you think? Did I make a mistake not bidding on the "dream of my life" ?

[ham]

Ariel,

You're okay, it's not from Daghestan. This is a Khevsur sabre of the 1920s-30s; the key is in the motifs, techniques and materials used in the inlays. You might compare with some shown in Astvatsaturian.
Incidentally, the scabbard has been recently recovered in pigskin. You won't find that in Daghestan much.

Ham

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ham

Ariel,

You're okay, it's not from Daghestan. This is a Khevsur sabre of the 1920s-30s; the key is in the motifs, techniques and materials used in the inlays. You might compare with some shown in Astvatsaturian.
Incidentally, the scabbard has been recently recovered in pigskin. You won't find that in Daghestan much.

Ham

Thanks for relieving my anxiety.
However, I would disagree a bit. Georgian and Daghestani Palashes were vey similar in terms of blades. The handle... Well, it is new and cannot tell us much, anyway. Khevsur palashes had scabbards clad in silver or brass sheets. Again, either Georg./Dagh. or a major loss of the original. The hanging rings are not simple round but heart-shaped and flattened (again, Dagh./Georg.)The ornamentation is vegetal, very much Georgian/Daghestani .
I do think this is a heavily(and I mean HEAVILY!!!) restored Daghestani/Georgian. But... pigskin!!! Yuck! And I am not talking about Halal, but about authenticity: goat or donkey are the only ones.
In any case, even if I was too cautious, at least it went to a fellow Forumite. Valjhun, enjoy!

[Valjhun]

well Ariel, we hadn't understood yupsss, maybe is the sliwowitza yupss, but I haven't bought that sword, as you can read in the other thread... I haven't liked it from the beginnig...

[ham]

It should be borne in mind that the Khevsur are Georgians, albeit mountain dwellers. The familiar Khevsur sword mounted in strips of silver or brass (and later, even aluminium) is one type. However it is predated by the form of the sword Ariel didn't get. This was popular in Georgian urban centers and was adopted from the Persians-- I am sure Astvatsaturian shows examples in Weapons of the Caucasian Peoples...? Don't have a copy with me this time.

The grip is not replaced, it is a characteristic example actually. Other than the odious recovering, which seems to represent some government directive carried out on every piece to exit the former Soviet states since Gorbachev, it is of the correct form-- this includes the mounts which, though crude, are traditional.

Ham

[ariel]

You are right: Khevsuri, Georgian and Daghestani sabers (of the so-called Iranian type) did overlap: after all Khevsurs straddle the border between Georgia proper and Daghestan.
Here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan
:
#1: Khevsur saber and Palash
#2:Georgian sabers
#3-4: Daghestani swords (sabers included)

All have "shamshir" type handles that, unlike Persians are oval in section and get progressively more narrow toward the pommel.
There is no argument: they look quite alike. But look at the belt rings of the sword in question: they are not round like Khevsuri, but "heart shaped" like Daghestani. The vegetal pattern on the crossguard and the drag are Daghestani, not Khevsuri, in my mind: the latter used crosses and just multiple points.
The handle looks authentic in superficial form but is far too intact, shiny, and the rivets are covered with horn buttons. Those should have fallen out long ago. Astvatsaturyan specifically mentions that Daghestani sabers only rarely had horn handles and that the handles often had an image of dog's, horse's or dragon's head carved into the end of the pommel. It is not there, and the tip is not "capped". The blade has no markings. Even though it looks real, the absense of markings is suspicious on the blades from this part of the world.
Overall, I have far too many doubts about this sword: it is partly authentic but there is too much uncertainty and too many nagging suspicions and inconsistensies about it. If I bought it, I would have looked at it time and time again and trusted it less and less.
One of my colleagues once married a stripper. Divorced her in 6 months to a year at very high financial cost. A cautionary tale for impulsive e-bay buyers.....
On the other hand, look at the ivory-hilted saber on pic. #2: its twin recently sold on e-bay, and I missed it...... A real Georgian saber made by Purunsuzov or Eliarov at the beginning of the 19th century in Akhaltsikhe. I am still kicking myself......