17th century training rapier?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... Looking at the tip of your sword, it seems to me that it got rounded as a result of combat damage, and quick re-grinding to make a usable point -- a radiused tip like that is still dangerous if an edge is made all round it. ... Their tips are expanded into either a button, or a "ball" with a very blunt conical face... I think that the tip of your sword is a bit more dangerous than that.

Ah, the button; is it a different context in that the French used a button they called "fleur de laine" (wool flower), after which they called their foils "fleurets". Interesting that in my lingo we use the galicism "florete".
Within my ignorance, i see the blade of Jean-Luc more fit to street fighting than to indoors school; its shape, the ricasso construction ... even the tracings of a smith's mark and an inscription ... if my eyes are not tricking me .

[broadaxe]

I believe this rapier was assembled from various parts. The blade is obviously of high quality (regardless the signs of time and use), the guard was damaged intentionally with the two main branches bent backwards (for unknown reason) thus making it awkward to use, the grip is crude and does not fit the weapon properly, the pommel is too small and improper - it looks like a pommel from a knife (I didn't find alike in Norman's book).

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I believe this rapier was assembled from various parts. The blade is obviously of high quality (regardless the signs of time and use), the guard was damaged intentionally with the two main branches bent backwards (for unknown reason) thus making it awkward to use, the grip is crude and does not fit the weapon properly, the pommel is too small and improper - it looks like a pommel from a knife (I didn't find alike in Norman's book).

The two Quillons don’t have the same size and I don’t think that the they were be made to be horizontal or if it was the case ,the Quillon terminal have been reworked to have the same shape than the pommel I don’t believe this second hypothesis.
Yes, me too I did not find any similar pommel with urn shape in Norman but the size for me is correct compare to other rapier of same size and also the point of balance is similar.
The hilt is somewhat a crude work but in an other side the smith has made the terminal quillons matching with the pommel.
I still believe that this work had been done later in the 17-century reusing a blade of high quality .

[ulfberth]

As Cerjack has pointed out with the shape and design its obvious that the pommel and the guard do belong together + the same workmanship and patina, there is no reason to doubt that.
It seems that the composition here is a working life combo, that does not mean it could been assembled like this initially either.
I don't know if there are books that illustrate these type of pommels but I have seen them before and here is a similar one , they are definitely used as sword or rapier pommels. A nice detail is the guard of this one has upward pointing quillions to.

Kind Ulberth

[broadaxe]

Cerjak, it seems we both agree the good blade was re-fitted. After a second look I also agree the pommel matches the guard (I'm aware of that type, just cannot put my finger on period and place). Could be a colonial rapier.
However, I still think the cross bars were bent backwards against its original design.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by broadaxe

... However, I still think the cross bars were bent backwards against its original design.

So they could. And yet, being of different length, it would look more plausible if they were meant to be originally positioned backwords ... as if the longer one served as a knuckle guard.
On the other hand, when it comes to fencing school rapiers, (quoting Jasper) the shape of quillons is a matter of personal taste and of course of the type of the fighting school and personal fighting skills.
We can see here how the same type of fencing rapiers may have different quillon approaches:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=school

[Jim McDougall]

Ulfberth, that is an absolutely perfect catch!!! Excellent example, and I agree this assembly may well have had working life originality. The pommel in Jean Lucs example is cruder and the sides are curved in from the top, and these quillons are crudely worked....however the sword itself has a certain mystique.
I am thinking that broadaxe is onto something with the colonial suggestion.

With the example Ulfberth shows, the swept upward quillons, the type of pommel and essentially the gestalt of the hilt suggest compelling likeness.
The example he shows, has an arming type blade with SAHAGUM, the name commonly use in Solingen for blades for the Low Countries.

The quillon terminals remind me of Spanish rapier types, and clearly this example of Jean Luc is a rapier blade, Its condition renders the markings pretty much indiscernible. I agree with Philip's idea of the blade point being reground possibly from damage.

It would seem to me that this may have been a sword following a type of hilt known and in some favor in Low Countries, probably Holland. Perhaps this was in a colonial setting where such fabrication might have been performed by a blacksmith using an older rapier blade, and following this apparently somewhat distinct hilt form. The Spanish influences, and possibly blades together with Dutch forms might offer plausible solution.