Viking Norse Keris for comment

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2017, 01:31 AM

I agree with David's comments, and will add a little more.

This keris blade is post 1980 production, overall style is East Javanese, workmanship is the Sumenep Madura school, but it may have been made somewhere else in East Jawa, technically, Madura is a part of East Jawa.

The wrongko and hilt are workmanship attributable to the Sumenep school, but probably obtained through Pasar Turi in Surabaya.

This is a completely modern keris that is absolutely in line with the approach that treats the keris as a vehicle for craft/art expression. Yes, the interpretation of the carving motifs of the dress could be taken as Scandinavian, but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. There is nothing traditional about this keris either as a societal indicator or in a talismanic sense.

alexish · 8th June 2017, 03:03 AM

Thanks David and Alan for your comments. I agree that this keris can easily pass off as a native Indonesian, because there are similiar native Madurese motifs. I attach some pictures as examples. I have a question. Does anyone know about horse-head keris handles from Madura. Does this have any historical, cultural or talismanic significance? Or is it a purely modern artistic expression?

Rick · 8th June 2017, 04:17 AM

Could you please repost your comment that is in moderation with the correct picture please.

David · 8th June 2017, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, the interpretation of the carving motifs of the dress could be taken as Scandinavian, but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia.

Alan, i believe you may have missed where Alexish stated that the design of this dress was specifically commissioned by him using viking motifs which he provided to the carver. So i'm not convinced we would encounter exactly similar forms in the common Indonesian market. I am still at odds with the reasons for this cultural mixed, but to each their own i suppose. Frankly, beyond the common use of pattern welding and the common necessity for travel by sea i don't think that one would really find much commonality between Norse culture and that of any of the Indonesian kingdoms.

David · 8th June 2017, 07:22 AM

Alexish, if i am not mistaken the image you have posted of the horse head hilt is mine. This is a relatively recent hilt that was probably carved only about 25 years ago. Madurese carvings are known for incorporating numerous European motifs introduced by the Dutch during centuries of colonialism. But the winged horse, called Si Mega, is the regional emblem of Sumenep and has been a part of their iconography for some time and probably is not attitude to the close relationship between the Madurese and the Dutch. Si Mega is mentioned in the legend of Joko Tolè. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko Tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday.
The horse in this hilt is a stylized version of Si Mega.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2017, 08:02 AM

Alexis, the wrongko in post 13 is also recent, it probably post dates 1980, it certainly does not pre-date WWII.

There were some beautiful, and very inventive wrongkos produced in Madura, but I have never seen a ladrangan with this sort of spiral ornamentation that went back beyond the late 1970's.I've certainly never seen one with provenance that placed it any earlier than last quarter 20th century.

A. G. Maisey · 8th June 2017, 08:14 AM

David, re your post #16.

Nope, I got everything that Alexis wrote, and I understand what he is saying.

What I wrote was this:-

"-- but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. ---"

"similar" does not mean "the same"

The style, execution, material everything except minor motif variation is the same as can be found in multitudes of these ornamental dress forms. They proliferate in souvenir shops and are very well known, and considering the detail in the carving not at all expensive.

Everybody knows the famous (notorious?) Balinese "tourist" keris executed in ebony or fake ebony and often bearing very refined, skilfully executed carving. Well, when these died out in Bali, their place was taken by the type of thing that Alexis is showing us.

I'm not talking motif detail, I'm talking about the complete object.

David · 8th June 2017, 02:48 PM

Thanks for clearing up my confusion Alan. I was thrown by your phrase "exactly similar" and thought you were referring to the motifs as well as the over all dress forms.

A. G. Maisey · 9th June 2017, 01:00 AM

Understood.

Maybe I should not have used "exactly", because even though exactly similar, the motif difference does not make them exactly the same. I'll try to be a bit more careful in future.

8th June 2017, 03:03 AM	#2
alexish Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 127	Native Madurese designs Thanks David and Alan for your comments. I agree that this keris can easily pass off as a native Indonesian, because there are similiar native Madurese motifs. I attach some pictures as examples. I have a question. Does anyone know about horse-head keris handles from Madura. Does this have any historical, cultural or talismanic significance? Or is it a purely modern artistic expression? Attached Images

8th June 2017, 04:17 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Alexish Could you please repost your comment that is in moderation with the correct picture please.

8th June 2017, 07:22 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Alexish, if i am not mistaken the image you have posted of the horse head hilt is mine. This is a relatively recent hilt that was probably carved only about 25 years ago. Madurese carvings are known for incorporating numerous European motifs introduced by the Dutch during centuries of colonialism. But the winged horse, called Si Mega, is the regional emblem of Sumenep and has been a part of their iconography for some time and probably is not attitude to the close relationship between the Madurese and the Dutch. Si Mega is mentioned in the legend of Joko Tolè. While journeying to Majapahit to assist his stepfather named Empu Kelleng, Joko Tolè met with his uncle, Adirasa, who gave him the flying horse Si Mega and a whip, both of which had been entrusted to him by Adipoday. The horse in this hilt is a stylized version of Si Mega. Attached Images

8th June 2017, 01:31 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I agree with David's comments, and will add a little more. This keris blade is post 1980 production, overall style is East Javanese, workmanship is the Sumenep Madura school, but it may have been made somewhere else in East Jawa, technically, Madura is a part of East Jawa. The wrongko and hilt are workmanship attributable to the Sumenep school, but probably obtained through Pasar Turi in Surabaya. This is a completely modern keris that is absolutely in line with the approach that treats the keris as a vehicle for craft/art expression. Yes, the interpretation of the carving motifs of the dress could be taken as Scandinavian, but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. There is nothing traditional about this keris either as a societal indicator or in a talismanic sense.

8th June 2017, 08:02 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Alexis, the wrongko in post 13 is also recent, it probably post dates 1980, it certainly does not pre-date WWII. There were some beautiful, and very inventive wrongkos produced in Madura, but I have never seen a ladrangan with this sort of spiral ornamentation that went back beyond the late 1970's.I've certainly never seen one with provenance that placed it any earlier than last quarter 20th century.

8th June 2017, 08:14 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	David, re your post #16. Nope, I got everything that Alexis wrote, and I understand what he is saying. What I wrote was this:- "-- but exactly similar forms can be found in markets in Indonesia. ---" "similar" does not mean "the same" The style, execution, material everything except minor motif variation is the same as can be found in multitudes of these ornamental dress forms. They proliferate in souvenir shops and are very well known, and considering the detail in the carving not at all expensive. Everybody knows the famous (notorious?) Balinese "tourist" keris executed in ebony or fake ebony and often bearing very refined, skilfully executed carving. Well, when these died out in Bali, their place was taken by the type of thing that Alexis is showing us. I'm not talking motif detail, I'm talking about the complete object.

8th June 2017, 02:48 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Thanks for clearing up my confusion Alan. I was thrown by your phrase "exactly similar" and thought you were referring to the motifs as well as the over all dress forms.

9th June 2017, 01:00 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Understood. Maybe I should not have used "exactly", because even though exactly similar, the motif difference does not make them exactly the same. I'll try to be a bit more careful in future.