KNEE PISTOL for COMMENT

rickystl · 3rd June 2017, 04:21 PM

Hi Stu.

Congratulations. That is a very interesting Ottoman style Knee Pistol. And it appears to have seen considerable action back in it's day. Some observations:

STOCK: The stock on this one is plain, undecorated as many were. Note the thick diameter of the wrist/grip area. Common with these guns. I've never seen one of these pistols broke at the wrist area. I believe this was done by design. Makes the stock very strong in the grip area.

LOCK: Yes, the lock does look like a locally made, period replacement. Which would not be uncommon. The original lock probably became in-operable at some point and was simply replaced with one that was readily available versus having a new one made. The general style of the lock looks like it was trying to duplicate a late period English flintlock. However, there is no "fence" connecting the pan to the frizzen (a pre-1750 feature). So, just the local lock maker's interpretation I guess. Unusual.

BARREL: Now this is interesting. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a hook breech. The European/French origin of the barrel makes sense. The style of lugs for the pins also looks European. The chisel work with remains of gold wash at the breach seem to be a common theme for these Knee Pistol barrels. I've seen these barrels pin-fastened, and others fastened with bands. And a couple that were pin-fastened with barrel bands just for decoration. With the marks on the barrel, all the evidence seems to point to a European barrel made for export. Which would not be a big surprise. But! the hook breech is an unusual and very neat feature for this gun. Nice find Stu.

This so called Knee Pistol design likely originated somewhere in Europe. But it seems to have never caught on. I've never seen a true Europen version. But it was most certainly popular in the Ottoman/Eastern markets. With so many examples still available today attests to this popularity. From highly decorated to very plain, and all points in between.

Rick

BANDOOK · 8th June 2017, 12:28 PM

HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH

Victrix · 8th June 2017, 01:51 PM

Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

kahnjar1 · 8th June 2017, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

Hi Victrix,
Yes IMHO it is the likely reason. To fire from the shoulder would have been nigh impossible due to stock length. Also the fact that the barrel is bell mouthed would make for easy reloading on horse/camel back.
Stu

kahnjar1 · 8th June 2017, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH

Hi Rajesh,
Is the barrel of yours brass? Looks to have that sort of sheen to it. Also I note,(and commented on by Rick in his reply above,) that the lock on your pistols does not appear to fit the mortice properly either. Another possible replacement lock??
Stu

Miguel · 9th June 2017, 07:59 PM

Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 10th June 2017, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question.
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
These, I suppose could be called a "blunderbuss pistol". They are not designed to be fired from the shoulder as the stock is far too short, so are not a true blunderbuss. When fired from horse or camel back, the knee would be the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.....hence I guess the term "Knee pistol".
If you have a look at the old postcard of the Sheiks kindly posted above by Rajesh, you will get an idea of the relative size of these weapons.
Hope this clarifies your question.
Stu

Pukka Bundook · 10th June 2017, 01:27 PM

Stu,

I think you have been talking to a pal of mine, old M. T, to get this one. :-)
He's on his way to our annual shoot here in Canada right now.

Very nice and lots of age to it! Very well used , showing they were not kept "just for show".

In GBG, 1540 -1740, W Keith -Neal shows an English pair of these. Similar in overall looks, but also it shows that such were made in the Uk, ....at least once!
Keith Neal had thoughts that they may have originated in England, and spread eastwards, but I cannot remember if I thought he had a strong case for believing such. To me, as they were so common in Turkish lands, I think someone had the pair made in England as a novelty, but do recall they had also seen much use, and if memory serves, one had a sling for casting over the shoulder when on horseback or similar.
Very nice Stu, & congrats!

Richard.

rickystl · 10th June 2017, 02:46 PM

I expect the term "knee" pistol is a more contemporary term. The gun being fired from horseback with the butt of the stock against the knee, theigh, waist, or maybe even the front of the saddle seems to be the only logical explanation.
It's also light enough to be held in one hand like a normal pistol. I don't really see any advantage to this design over a typical horse pistol. But for some reason they remained popular in the Eastern markets for a long time.

Hi Bandook. Yes Stu, that's a good question: Is that a BRASS barrel on your piece? It does look like it from the one photo. To me, the lock looks original to the mortise. Just a bit of wood eaten away from constant use. I too have that photo in my library showing the knee pistol. Very neat. Let us know about the barrel on your's. Don't recall seeing one with a brass barrel.

Rick

Miguel · 10th June 2017, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Miguel,
These, I suppose could be called a "blunderbuss pistol". They are not designed to be fired from the shoulder as the stock is far too short, so are not a true blunderbuss. When fired from horse or camel back, the knee would be the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.....hence I guess the term "Knee pistol".
If you have a look at the old postcard of the Sheiks kindly posted above by Rajesh, you will get an idea of the relative size of these weapons.
Hope this clarifies your question.
Stu

Thanks for the explanation Stu you have answered my question perfectly for which I am much obliged

Miguel

BANDOOK · 12th June 2017, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rajesh,
Is the barrel of yours brass? Looks to have that sort of sheen to it. Also I note,(and commented on by Rick in his reply above,) that the lock on your pistols does not appear to fit the mortice properly either. Another possible replacement lock??
Stu

Hi Stu ,yes its brass and am posting some more images for you,regards Rajesh

rickystl · 17th June 2017, 03:19 PM

Hi Bandook.

WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat.
Thanks for the additional pics.

Rick

BANDOOK · 20th June 2017, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Bandook.

WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat.
Thanks for the additional pics.

Rick

Thanks Rick for the information ,please could you approx. date my pistol,i assume this is Turkish
Regards Rajesh

rickystl · 24th June 2017, 05:35 PM

Hi Rajesh. As others will confirm, it's almost impossible to accurately date these guns. They were used over such a long period of time, and most (like the horse pistols) were unmarked. But the brass barrel tells me it is more likely from the first quarter of the 19th Century when brass barrels in Europe were more in vogue, and likely the barrel was European made.

Hi Estcrh. Thank you so much for these wonderful photos!! This is the first time I've seen these. I'll add these to my library. Great pics !!!! I've seen many of these Knee Pistols with either a belt hook or a single ring attached the the rear lock screw for suspension to either a waist belt or a shoulder sling, as the photos show. Then, there are others (like my own) that have no provision for a sling/belt attachement. I once saw a Knee Pistol with a section of leather simply wrapped and stiched around the breech area of the pistol with a leather loop for suspension to another belt/shoulder sling. It was obvious to me that the leather was original to the gun. But alas, it was not for sale.

The main purpose of the blunderbuss barrel design was the ease of reloading, and the ability of being able to use a variety of shot. I can say from practicle shooting experience, that the use of shot in a blunderbuss barrel does not spread the projectiles any wider than a typical shotgun barrel. These Knee Pistols would be a close range weapon. So I think that if they were loaded with shot that the multiple projectiles would not only hit the opposing rider, but his horse also. But I guess that probably happened too. LOL

Hi Coorado. The name on the lock plate is probably spurious. It was probably added while the gun was being assembled in the Ottomas. The letters just making use of any English letters to give the impression of Europen manufacture. This was done so often on guns of every quality in the Region. However, the lock does indeen look European made to me. It has both English and French styling cues. Not really surprising. The quality of the lock internals lead me to believe it's Europen origin. Looks well assembled.

Many of the Horse Pistols seemed to favor French pistol design of the mid-18th Century. While the locks on these Knee Pistols seem to be all over the place. The Knee Pistols, like the Horse Pistols, for the most part are unmarked as to the maker or origin.
Here is a pic of my Knee Pistol I posted here a while back. While I'm convinced that both the barrel and lock are of European origin, it's is unmarked.

Stu: Thanks for starting what turned out to be such an interesting Thread for us gun enthusiests. LOL And the great pics from Estcrh.

Rick

8th June 2017, 12:28 PM	#2
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 627	HERE IS ONE FROM MY COLLECTION STU HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

24th June 2017, 05:35 PM	#14
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Rajesh. As others will confirm, it's almost impossible to accurately date these guns. They were used over such a long period of time, and most (like the horse pistols) were unmarked. But the brass barrel tells me it is more likely from the first quarter of the 19th Century when brass barrels in Europe were more in vogue, and likely the barrel was European made. Hi Estcrh. Thank you so much for these wonderful photos!! This is the first time I've seen these. I'll add these to my library. Great pics !!!! I've seen many of these Knee Pistols with either a belt hook or a single ring attached the the rear lock screw for suspension to either a waist belt or a shoulder sling, as the photos show. Then, there are others (like my own) that have no provision for a sling/belt attachement. I once saw a Knee Pistol with a section of leather simply wrapped and stiched around the breech area of the pistol with a leather loop for suspension to another belt/shoulder sling. It was obvious to me that the leather was original to the gun. But alas, it was not for sale. The main purpose of the blunderbuss barrel design was the ease of reloading, and the ability of being able to use a variety of shot. I can say from practicle shooting experience, that the use of shot in a blunderbuss barrel does not spread the projectiles any wider than a typical shotgun barrel. These Knee Pistols would be a close range weapon. So I think that if they were loaded with shot that the multiple projectiles would not only hit the opposing rider, but his horse also. But I guess that probably happened too. LOL Hi Coorado. The name on the lock plate is probably spurious. It was probably added while the gun was being assembled in the Ottomas. The letters just making use of any English letters to give the impression of Europen manufacture. This was done so often on guns of every quality in the Region. However, the lock does indeen look European made to me. It has both English and French styling cues. Not really surprising. The quality of the lock internals lead me to believe it's Europen origin. Looks well assembled. Many of the Horse Pistols seemed to favor French pistol design of the mid-18th Century. While the locks on these Knee Pistols seem to be all over the place. The Knee Pistols, like the Horse Pistols, for the most part are unmarked as to the maker or origin. Here is a pic of my Knee Pistol I posted here a while back. While I'm convinced that both the barrel and lock are of European origin, it's is unmarked. Stu: Thanks for starting what turned out to be such an interesting Thread for us gun enthusiests. LOL And the great pics from Estcrh. Rick Attached Images

3rd June 2017, 04:21 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Stu. Congratulations. That is a very interesting Ottoman style Knee Pistol. And it appears to have seen considerable action back in it's day. Some observations: STOCK: The stock on this one is plain, undecorated as many were. Note the thick diameter of the wrist/grip area. Common with these guns. I've never seen one of these pistols broke at the wrist area. I believe this was done by design. Makes the stock very strong in the grip area. LOCK: Yes, the lock does look like a locally made, period replacement. Which would not be uncommon. The original lock probably became in-operable at some point and was simply replaced with one that was readily available versus having a new one made. The general style of the lock looks like it was trying to duplicate a late period English flintlock. However, there is no "fence" connecting the pan to the frizzen (a pre-1750 feature). So, just the local lock maker's interpretation I guess. Unusual. BARREL: Now this is interesting. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a hook breech. The European/French origin of the barrel makes sense. The style of lugs for the pins also looks European. The chisel work with remains of gold wash at the breach seem to be a common theme for these Knee Pistol barrels. I've seen these barrels pin-fastened, and others fastened with bands. And a couple that were pin-fastened with barrel bands just for decoration. With the marks on the barrel, all the evidence seems to point to a European barrel made for export. Which would not be a big surprise. But! the hook breech is an unusual and very neat feature for this gun. Nice find Stu. This so called Knee Pistol design likely originated somewhere in Europe. But it seems to have never caught on. I've never seen a true Europen version. But it was most certainly popular in the Ottoman/Eastern markets. With so many examples still available today attests to this popularity. From highly decorated to very plain, and all points in between. Rick

8th June 2017, 01:51 PM	#3
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

9th June 2017, 07:59 PM	#6
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question. Miguel

10th June 2017, 01:27 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Stu, I think you have been talking to a pal of mine, old M. T, to get this one. :-) He's on his way to our annual shoot here in Canada right now. Very nice and lots of age to it! Very well used , showing they were not kept "just for show". In GBG, 1540 -1740, W Keith -Neal shows an English pair of these. Similar in overall looks, but also it shows that such were made in the Uk, ....at least once! Keith Neal had thoughts that they may have originated in England, and spread eastwards, but I cannot remember if I thought he had a strong case for believing such. To me, as they were so common in Turkish lands, I think someone had the pair made in England as a novelty, but do recall they had also seen much use, and if memory serves, one had a sling for casting over the shoulder when on horseback or similar. Very nice Stu, & congrats! Richard.

10th June 2017, 02:46 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	I expect the term "knee" pistol is a more contemporary term. The gun being fired from horseback with the butt of the stock against the knee, theigh, waist, or maybe even the front of the saddle seems to be the only logical explanation. It's also light enough to be held in one hand like a normal pistol. I don't really see any advantage to this design over a typical horse pistol. But for some reason they remained popular in the Eastern markets for a long time. Hi Bandook. Yes Stu, that's a good question: Is that a BRASS barrel on your piece? It does look like it from the one photo. To me, the lock looks original to the mortise. Just a bit of wood eaten away from constant use. I too have that photo in my library showing the knee pistol. Very neat. Let us know about the barrel on your's. Don't recall seeing one with a brass barrel. Rick

17th June 2017, 03:19 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Bandook. WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat. Thanks for the additional pics. Rick