KNEE PISTOL for COMMENT

Richard G · 1st June 2017, 09:53 PM

Stu,
I agree. If these had been British proof marks I would have doubted their authenticity.
I wouldn't argue with a French attribution as the origin.
Best wishes
Richard

rickystl · 3rd June 2017, 04:21 PM

Hi Stu.

Congratulations. That is a very interesting Ottoman style Knee Pistol. And it appears to have seen considerable action back in it's day. Some observations:

STOCK: The stock on this one is plain, undecorated as many were. Note the thick diameter of the wrist/grip area. Common with these guns. I've never seen one of these pistols broke at the wrist area. I believe this was done by design. Makes the stock very strong in the grip area.

LOCK: Yes, the lock does look like a locally made, period replacement. Which would not be uncommon. The original lock probably became in-operable at some point and was simply replaced with one that was readily available versus having a new one made. The general style of the lock looks like it was trying to duplicate a late period English flintlock. However, there is no "fence" connecting the pan to the frizzen (a pre-1750 feature). So, just the local lock maker's interpretation I guess. Unusual.

BARREL: Now this is interesting. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a hook breech. The European/French origin of the barrel makes sense. The style of lugs for the pins also looks European. The chisel work with remains of gold wash at the breach seem to be a common theme for these Knee Pistol barrels. I've seen these barrels pin-fastened, and others fastened with bands. And a couple that were pin-fastened with barrel bands just for decoration. With the marks on the barrel, all the evidence seems to point to a European barrel made for export. Which would not be a big surprise. But! the hook breech is an unusual and very neat feature for this gun. Nice find Stu.

This so called Knee Pistol design likely originated somewhere in Europe. But it seems to have never caught on. I've never seen a true Europen version. But it was most certainly popular in the Ottoman/Eastern markets. With so many examples still available today attests to this popularity. From highly decorated to very plain, and all points in between.

Rick

BANDOOK · 8th June 2017, 12:28 PM

HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH

Victrix · 8th June 2017, 01:51 PM

Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

kahnjar1 · 8th June 2017, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

Hi Victrix,
Yes IMHO it is the likely reason. To fire from the shoulder would have been nigh impossible due to stock length. Also the fact that the barrel is bell mouthed would make for easy reloading on horse/camel back.
Stu

kahnjar1 · 8th June 2017, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH

Hi Rajesh,
Is the barrel of yours brass? Looks to have that sort of sheen to it. Also I note,(and commented on by Rick in his reply above,) that the lock on your pistols does not appear to fit the mortice properly either. Another possible replacement lock??
Stu

Miguel · 9th June 2017, 07:59 PM

Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question.
Miguel

kahnjar1 · 10th June 2017, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question.
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
These, I suppose could be called a "blunderbuss pistol". They are not designed to be fired from the shoulder as the stock is far too short, so are not a true blunderbuss. When fired from horse or camel back, the knee would be the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.....hence I guess the term "Knee pistol".
If you have a look at the old postcard of the Sheiks kindly posted above by Rajesh, you will get an idea of the relative size of these weapons.
Hope this clarifies your question.
Stu

Pukka Bundook · 10th June 2017, 01:27 PM

Stu,

I think you have been talking to a pal of mine, old M. T, to get this one. :-)
He's on his way to our annual shoot here in Canada right now.

Very nice and lots of age to it! Very well used , showing they were not kept "just for show".

In GBG, 1540 -1740, W Keith -Neal shows an English pair of these. Similar in overall looks, but also it shows that such were made in the Uk, ....at least once!
Keith Neal had thoughts that they may have originated in England, and spread eastwards, but I cannot remember if I thought he had a strong case for believing such. To me, as they were so common in Turkish lands, I think someone had the pair made in England as a novelty, but do recall they had also seen much use, and if memory serves, one had a sling for casting over the shoulder when on horseback or similar.
Very nice Stu, & congrats!

Richard.

Miguel · 10th June 2017, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Miguel,
These, I suppose could be called a "blunderbuss pistol". They are not designed to be fired from the shoulder as the stock is far too short, so are not a true blunderbuss. When fired from horse or camel back, the knee would be the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.....hence I guess the term "Knee pistol".
If you have a look at the old postcard of the Sheiks kindly posted above by Rajesh, you will get an idea of the relative size of these weapons.
Hope this clarifies your question.
Stu

Thanks for the explanation Stu you have answered my question perfectly for which I am much obliged

Miguel

BANDOOK · 12th June 2017, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rajesh,
Is the barrel of yours brass? Looks to have that sort of sheen to it. Also I note,(and commented on by Rick in his reply above,) that the lock on your pistols does not appear to fit the mortice properly either. Another possible replacement lock??
Stu

Hi Stu ,yes its brass and am posting some more images for you,regards Rajesh

rickystl · 17th June 2017, 03:19 PM

Hi Bandook.

WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat.
Thanks for the additional pics.

Rick

BANDOOK · 20th June 2017, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Bandook.

WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat.
Thanks for the additional pics.

Rick

Thanks Rick for the information ,please could you approx. date my pistol,i assume this is Turkish
Regards Rajesh

8th June 2017, 12:28 PM	#3
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 627	HERE IS ONE FROM MY COLLECTION STU HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH Attached Images

1st June 2017, 09:53 PM	#1
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	Stu, I agree. If these had been British proof marks I would have doubted their authenticity. I wouldn't argue with a French attribution as the origin. Best wishes Richard

3rd June 2017, 04:21 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Stu. Congratulations. That is a very interesting Ottoman style Knee Pistol. And it appears to have seen considerable action back in it's day. Some observations: STOCK: The stock on this one is plain, undecorated as many were. Note the thick diameter of the wrist/grip area. Common with these guns. I've never seen one of these pistols broke at the wrist area. I believe this was done by design. Makes the stock very strong in the grip area. LOCK: Yes, the lock does look like a locally made, period replacement. Which would not be uncommon. The original lock probably became in-operable at some point and was simply replaced with one that was readily available versus having a new one made. The general style of the lock looks like it was trying to duplicate a late period English flintlock. However, there is no "fence" connecting the pan to the frizzen (a pre-1750 feature). So, just the local lock maker's interpretation I guess. Unusual. BARREL: Now this is interesting. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a hook breech. The European/French origin of the barrel makes sense. The style of lugs for the pins also looks European. The chisel work with remains of gold wash at the breach seem to be a common theme for these Knee Pistol barrels. I've seen these barrels pin-fastened, and others fastened with bands. And a couple that were pin-fastened with barrel bands just for decoration. With the marks on the barrel, all the evidence seems to point to a European barrel made for export. Which would not be a big surprise. But! the hook breech is an unusual and very neat feature for this gun. Nice find Stu. This so called Knee Pistol design likely originated somewhere in Europe. But it seems to have never caught on. I've never seen a true Europen version. But it was most certainly popular in the Ottoman/Eastern markets. With so many examples still available today attests to this popularity. From highly decorated to very plain, and all points in between. Rick

8th June 2017, 01:51 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

9th June 2017, 07:59 PM	#7
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question. Miguel

10th June 2017, 01:27 PM	#9
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Stu, I think you have been talking to a pal of mine, old M. T, to get this one. :-) He's on his way to our annual shoot here in Canada right now. Very nice and lots of age to it! Very well used , showing they were not kept "just for show". In GBG, 1540 -1740, W Keith -Neal shows an English pair of these. Similar in overall looks, but also it shows that such were made in the Uk, ....at least once! Keith Neal had thoughts that they may have originated in England, and spread eastwards, but I cannot remember if I thought he had a strong case for believing such. To me, as they were so common in Turkish lands, I think someone had the pair made in England as a novelty, but do recall they had also seen much use, and if memory serves, one had a sling for casting over the shoulder when on horseback or similar. Very nice Stu, & congrats! Richard.

17th June 2017, 03:19 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Bandook. WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat. Thanks for the additional pics. Rick