Help required to identify a strange stamp on a Kaskara blade

[Edster]

Hello Miguel,

I think the mark on the top sword is a maker's mark. It's a take off from the Man in the Moon face on some German blades. Various sword smiths in Kassala, Sudan mark their blades with variations circles, curves lines and dots. Your mark might be a rendition of the Arabic number 40 or Arbane. A Kassala smith named Awad Adam had a similar mark but with a complete circle with the arbane inside. A similar close rendition was used by Hassan Shaykh Idris. I could hardly tell the difference, but the smith community was aware of subtle differences. Date would be mid to late 20th Cent.

The second blade is probably European trade blade. The mark looks like it might be a spider, but I can't identify it.

Regards,
Ed

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Edster ~ Amazing linkage you make to the moon being actually arbine .. in arabic ..40. Which it does seem to be!!(Each moon is identically struck and clearly says 40 in each case) However, the numbering does appear to be highly stylised... The new moon phase is commonly seen as Talismanic in Arabia generally ... but I thought it was a copied in from European moons seen on Toledo and Solingen swords but not as I understand an actual makers mark. It would follow that in the European sense moon strikes were a mark of quality. The 40 configuration is a new one on me! thus very interesting.
The other mark seems to be Peter Cull's Fly Mark which may indicate a European trade blade for Africa.

I include a Forum library reference for European Moons at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4&page=1&pp=30

See also Fly Markings at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=anthony+North

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Edster]

Salaams, Ibrahiim.

Thanks for referencing the seminal thread started by Jim. It lays the historic basis for later Sudanese smiths to tie, adapt and identify their work with a reference to quality and the Crescent Moon's symbolism in Islam. My guess is the Crescent Moon's design elements when adapted with a little imagination looks like 40 in Arabic numerals. I see nothing significant in the number 40 as such.

Regards,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you guys for bringing these in, and we have learned a great deal since these earlier discussions. Ed's fantastic field work in Kassala actually predated the key work by Reed ("A Kaskara from Darfur", JAAS, 1987) as he was there in 1984.
I recall discussions with Ed in 2010, and it was noted that these modern interpretations of the 'dukari' moons did seem to represent the Arabic '4' and '0' =40, however it was never clear why that number was chosen. Perhaps simply because the moon 'device' was seen as those numbers in a 'Rohrshach' kind of perspective.

It seems that the duality of the paired moons were seen from early blade examples from Germany, and the crescent moon, important in native folk religion and traditional symbolism was adopted by native artisans. The smiths were considered to be in league with magic powers, and these symbolized magic imbued in the blades, seemingly mostly from Hausa context.
Clearly these notions and devices were transmitted to the east and into the traditions of the later swordsmiths in Kassala and perhaps other locations.

It is interesting that other images such as squiggle marks, letter P in an arc and others also were stamped in blades in this same paired configuration.
Some of the 'dukari' of later make are badly degenerated from worn stamps and often the stamps are not matched.

With the second sword, the singular stamp in the fuller is what is better known as a 'twig' mark, often seen quite early in Italian blades, in threes or sometimes single (Wallace Coll. Mann, 1962, A576, German 1600) but later adopted in German blades. Apparently these may have also been placed inside 'sickle' marks as well, but these may have been Styrian.
These were at times regarded as 'marca mosca' (=the fly) and this may have caused them to be construed by native artisans as the dexterity of the fly signified that skill in a warrior in combat.

One of these is seen in the blade of the 'Sword of Kanta' ("Nigerian Panoply", Bivar) a Nigerian regalia sword. The image shape also resembles the Berber letter 'yaz' which symbolizes 'free man'.
While none are definitive, these are reasonably plausible ideas for these markings as found in native context and as seen in these examples

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you guys for bringing these in, and we have learned a great deal since these earlier discussions. Ed's fantastic field work in Kassala actually predated the key work by Reed ("A Kaskara from Darfur", JAAS, 1987) as he was there in 1984.
I recall discussions with Ed in 2010, and it was noted that these modern interpretations of the 'dukari' moons did seem to represent the Arabic '4' and '0' =40, however it was never clear why that number was chosen. Perhaps simply because the moon 'device' was seen as those numbers in a 'Rohrshach' kind of perspective.

It seems that the duality of the paired moons were seen from early blade examples from Germany, and the crescent moon, important in native folk religion and traditional symbolism was adopted by native artisans. The smiths were considered to be in league with magic powers, and these symbolized magic imbued in the blades, seemingly mostly from Hausa context.
Clearly these notions and devices were transmitted to the east and into the traditions of the later swordsmiths in Kassala and perhaps other locations.

It is interesting that other images such as squiggle marks, letter P in an arc and others also were stamped in blades in this same paired configuration.
Some of the 'dukari' of later make are badly degenerated from worn stamps and often the stamps are not matched.

With the second sword, the singular stamp in the fuller is what is better known as a 'twig' mark, often seen quite early in Italian blades, in threes or sometimes single (Wallace Coll. Mann, 1962, A576, German 1600) but later adopted in German blades. Apparently these may have also been placed inside 'sickle' marks as well, but these may have been Styrian.
These were at times regarded as 'marca mosca' (=the fly) and this may have caused them to be construed by native artisans as the dexterity of the fly signified that skill in a warrior in combat.

One of these is seen in the blade of the 'Sword of Kanta' ("Nigerian Panoply", Bivar) a Nigerian regalia sword. The image shape also resembles the Berber letter 'yaz' which symbolizes 'free man'.
While none are definitive, these are reasonably plausible ideas for these markings as found in native context and as seen in these examples

Hello Jim,
Once again blown away by the depth of your knowledge on this subject, the mind boggles although I am not sure from your comment whether you think that the bottom sword may have an African or European blade!
Regards
Miguel

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Edster

Salaams, Ibrahiim.

Thanks for referencing the seminal thread started by Jim. It lays the historic basis for later Sudanese smiths to tie, adapt and identify their work with a reference to quality and the Crescent Moon's symbolism in Islam. My guess is the Crescent Moon's design elements when adapted with a little imagination looks like 40 in Arabic numerals. I see nothing significant in the number 40 as such.

Regards,
Ed

Salaams Ed, The number 40 (arbyn) is not only a magic number/Talisman but comes hyper supercharged as an absolutely powerful indicator since it takes pride of place in the Holy Quran in one special verse extolling the nature of life and how life should be inspired...in which incredibly for a number it is deliberately mentioned three times. I am not a religious scholar and cannot give an exact meaning nor can I offer advice as to the often hidden invocation but here is the passage for reference~
Quote"

Rasool Allah, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behaviour and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behaviour, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise."Unquote.

The point is that Forty is mentioned 3 times and is thus a powerful Talismanic number. I think it could mean that with this sword good deeds may be done according to the script above. The blade is thus protected by the entire verse above by the inclusion of the moon shaped stylistic number forty.

The inclusion of the word forty in stylised arabic secretly inscribed as a Moon defines the Talisman as different from the European Moon which is a mark placed in Toledo and Solingen schools of swordmaking to denote blade quality. The Islamic Moon (although it may have originally been copied onto some African blades and there are many examples where the moon is more rudimentary perhaps done by uneducated African swordmakers or owners) is completely different being purely a Talisman. The Moon in Islamic lands is revered whereas the European Moon carries no religious connotation for Muslims...though there is a religious link in European Moons as a device illustrating anti Papal leanings in some quarters in Europe...and as already described also as a mark of blade excellence...in fact some are illustrated as Funny Face Moons which are hardly likely to be struck by Islamic forge masters..thus there is a distinct difference in the form.

References;
A. http://iainnorman.com/essays/2014/04...frican-swords/
B. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=Tuareg+Swords
C. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=101339
D. #2 Above where it is noted by Ed. Your mark might be a rendition of the Arabic number 40 or Arbane. A Kassala smith named Awad Adam had a similar mark but with a complete circle with the arbane inside. A similar close rendition was used by Hassan Shaykh Idris.
E. Researchers of Taureg Talisman may benefit from reading http://www.academia.edu/7634962/The_...nd_West_Africa

[Edster]

Excellent analysis, Ibrahiim! The combination of a quality and a talismanic effect is a powerful symbol. Thus the individual smith "signed" his work that he incorporated these qualities into the blade. That provides a much deeper meaning.

Miguel, I assume that the various smiths shared available punches to create their own version of the 40 as their individual signature. I've noticed the use of different sized/profiled punches to make the marks and could assume that the blade (or a set of similarly marked blades) was made at different place and/or time. If we had enough data it may be possible to better show blade provenance based on the physical qualities of the different maker's marks we encounter.

Best,
Ed

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Ed, The collation of data of that magnitude would be amazing...From my perspective I think the fact that we now have a concrete basis to work on having removed the shroud of secrecy from this puzzle is pretty incredible and stems from your sharp eye seeing the word forty in arabic in a disguised form ...When you look at the way talisman were set up in that region it is amazing that you recognized the word at all...The marabouts (spell makers) were more than capable of selecting about 5 different languages including Hebrew from which to choose a confusing array of indecipherable letters some the wrong way around or deformed.

On follow up I detected about 20 other figure 40 potential Talisman but none seemed to either fit except the most powerful one I gave. There was one other which said Quote" It is said that a person’s intellect attains maturity in forty years, everyone according to his own capacity." Unquote. This may have had something to do with Tuareg men on reaching 40 attaining a sort of pious state ...or Pilgrim attitude...and having their heads shaved but I discounted that in favour of the stronger issue.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Edster]

Awad Adam, a Kassala blade smith, offhandedly described the mark to me as an arbain (40) so I can't claim that insight, but I am glad I wrote it down in my field notes. Every time I think of that time among the sword makers I wish I had asked more questions and taken more photographs. But then again my focus was the "social economics of swordmaking" and only nibbled about the edges of the much larger Kaskara Realm as such.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Edster

Hello Miguel,

I think the mark on the top sword is a maker's mark. It's a take off from the Man in the Moon face on some German blades. Various sword smiths in Kassala, Sudan mark their blades with variations circles, curves lines and dots. Your mark might be a rendition of the Arabic number 40 or Arbane. A Kassala smith named Awad Adam had a similar mark but with a complete circle with the arbane inside. A similar close rendition was used by Hassan Shaykh Idris. I could hardly tell the difference, but the smith community was aware of subtle differences. Date would be mid to late 20th Cent.

The second blade is probably European trade blade. The mark looks like it might be a spider, but I can't identify it.

Regards,
Ed

Hello Ed, Thank you very much for your prompt and very interesting reply I never attributed the mark on the top sword as a makers mark I always attributed these marks on Kaskara blades to be Talismanic and I would never have associated them with the number 40, not knowing Arabic, just shows my ignorance of this subject. Did you notice that the moon at the top was thinner than the moon at the bottom? I wonder if two different stamps were used or if the moon stamp comprises of one stamp with the outer ring and one with the face which would lead t the difference if the stamper was careless?
I could not see a spider in the stamp on the second sword until you mentioned it I just don't know what it is. I thought the blade may be a European trade blade as the steel looks to be better quality than the top sword. Thanks again for your reply you've given me something to think about.
Regards
Miguel