"The sword of the Prophet"

Zan · 7th March 2006, 03:24 AM

Hi Puff,

The pictures comes from the New Testament of the Bible, and not the Guran, so it makes sense. It is Arab, not Muslim.

Zan (still another Frenchie!, but from Québec)

M.carter · 7th March 2006, 11:02 AM

I find it very strange that the pictures come from a bible. You can see that whoever drew the pictures, wrote in the border around them some texts from the Hadith of the prophet muhammad. Which is totally contradicting. Why would a muslim arab have his picture drawn in a bible, with islamic texts around??

Intersting to note is the halo around the mans head, which implies late abbasid period (according to "The court of the Caliphs"- Hugh Kennedy). During the late abbasid period, artists seem to have found halo's in christian drawings (usually only around the heads of saints) impressive, and they drew halo's around everyone!

Im quite reluctant to believe that this page came from a bible, as the texts in the border are typical shiite texts(writtern in farsi script), and the fair Persian face on the character, and decoration all seem to point to Persia.

If I were an arab, I would find the french text below the drawing extremely offensive.

ariel · 7th March 2006, 11:29 AM

Oh, No-o-o-o-o!
Please, not on this Forum!!!!!
Can we just talk about sharp and pointy things?

Andrew · 7th March 2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Oh, No-o-o-o-o!
Please, not on this Forum!!!!!
Can we just talk about sharp and pointy things?

Indeed.

Mark, I hope no one would be offended by a text some 300 years old. After all, it wasn't posted for us to discuss the religious and cultural prejudices of the author, rather the interesting sword held by the subject.

If any one is offended by this text, please feel free to lodge a complaint with the decendents of the author, as no one here is endorsing the comments.

Let's please focus on the sword.

M.carter · 7th March 2006, 01:35 PM

Sorry

Didnt mean to stir things up. No, im not offended (why would I anyway??).

Sorry if I caused some unrest in my previous post. I just wanted to comment on the manuscript.

B.I · 7th March 2006, 04:15 PM

back to the original sword, it may be wise not to dismiss these swords so quickly. obviously this one is of no consequence, but again its always good to have a clear mind, for a very good reason.
i know of a number of incredible finds. unfortunately i have yet to be part of one so i am the storyteller, and not the boastful owner

not so many years ago in one of the largest auction houses (how vague is that?) a sword appeared that looked along the lines of ariels andalusian piece (attached). it had the typical hispanic hilt and a full matching scabbard. the blade was wide and straight and the sword was altogether quite gawdy. the hilt and scabbard was covered in large turquoises and other stones, set into bone and it was bloody ugly. it was catalogued as a 19thC theatrical sword but a well known arms specialist (again, vague). to all intent and purpose, it looked exactly as it was described. more costume jewellery than weapon and so it was pretty much overlooked. the blade was quite nicely decorated so it fetched more than a meaningless sword, but much less than a sword of merit.
well, the blade was actually almost identical to the attached sword in the topkapi and is completely original! the goldword is as fine, the blade shape the same (with multiple fullers), it isnt quite as thoroughly decorated but the islamic script and st. irene mark are present. i have no idea how this sword came to be dressed in this manner, nor how anyone could have overlooked it once the blade was seen. all i can say was that the fittings were so incredibly ugly that no one of knowledge must have unsheathed the sword to see its true beauty.
i think this is one of the greatest of finds, and i cannot begin to explain the importance of the blade. as far as i know, it is the only other one outside the topkapi and its crazy to think it entered the salerooms without being noticed. it is in a private collection that i know, and will be published at some point this year.
just goes to show it pays to look twice.
the hilt and scabbard have been removed of course, and will no doubt find a trade kaskara blade and re-enter the salerooms once more as a 19thC theatrical sword.

Andrew · 7th March 2006, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Sorry

Didnt mean to stir things up. No, im not offended (why would I anyway??).

Sorry if I caused some unrest in my previous post. I just wanted to comment on the manuscript.

No worries, Mark.

7th March 2006, 04:15 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	one of the greatest finds back to the original sword, it may be wise not to dismiss these swords so quickly. obviously this one is of no consequence, but again its always good to have a clear mind, for a very good reason. i know of a number of incredible finds. unfortunately i have yet to be part of one so i am the storyteller, and not the boastful owner not so many years ago in one of the largest auction houses (how vague is that?) a sword appeared that looked along the lines of ariels andalusian piece (attached). it had the typical hispanic hilt and a full matching scabbard. the blade was wide and straight and the sword was altogether quite gawdy. the hilt and scabbard was covered in large turquoises and other stones, set into bone and it was bloody ugly. it was catalogued as a 19thC theatrical sword but a well known arms specialist (again, vague). to all intent and purpose, it looked exactly as it was described. more costume jewellery than weapon and so it was pretty much overlooked. the blade was quite nicely decorated so it fetched more than a meaningless sword, but much less than a sword of merit. well, the blade was actually almost identical to the attached sword in the topkapi and is completely original! the goldword is as fine, the blade shape the same (with multiple fullers), it isnt quite as thoroughly decorated but the islamic script and st. irene mark are present. i have no idea how this sword came to be dressed in this manner, nor how anyone could have overlooked it once the blade was seen. all i can say was that the fittings were so incredibly ugly that no one of knowledge must have unsheathed the sword to see its true beauty. i think this is one of the greatest of finds, and i cannot begin to explain the importance of the blade. as far as i know, it is the only other one outside the topkapi and its crazy to think it entered the salerooms without being noticed. it is in a private collection that i know, and will be published at some point this year. just goes to show it pays to look twice. the hilt and scabbard have been removed of course, and will no doubt find a trade kaskara blade and re-enter the salerooms once more as a 19thC theatrical sword. Attached Images

7th March 2006, 03:24 AM	#1
Zan Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Montréal, Province of Québec, Canada Posts: 46	Hi Puff, The pictures comes from the New Testament of the Bible, and not the Guran, so it makes sense. It is Arab, not Muslim. Zan (still another Frenchie!, but from Québec)

7th March 2006, 11:02 AM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	I find it very strange that the pictures come from a bible. You can see that whoever drew the pictures, wrote in the border around them some texts from the Hadith of the prophet muhammad. Which is totally contradicting. Why would a muslim arab have his picture drawn in a bible, with islamic texts around?? Intersting to note is the halo around the mans head, which implies late abbasid period (according to "The court of the Caliphs"- Hugh Kennedy). During the late abbasid period, artists seem to have found halo's in christian drawings (usually only around the heads of saints) impressive, and they drew halo's around everyone! Im quite reluctant to believe that this page came from a bible, as the texts in the border are typical shiite texts(writtern in farsi script), and the fair Persian face on the character, and decoration all seem to point to Persia. If I were an arab, I would find the french text below the drawing extremely offensive.

7th March 2006, 11:29 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oh, No-o-o-o-o! Please, not on this Forum!!!!! Can we just talk about sharp and pointy things?

7th March 2006, 01:35 PM	#5
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Sorry Didnt mean to stir things up. No, im not offended (why would I anyway??). Sorry if I caused some unrest in my previous post. I just wanted to comment on the manuscript.