Austrian hussar sabre for ID

[Jim McDougall]

Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature.
The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for.

Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.

[corrado26]

Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage....
corrado26

[corrado26]

Here are the fotos of a Prussian dragoon sword 1732 with a notch at the tip of its blade. Remarkable is the Prussian eagle mark on the blade what proofss that this blade is no Austrian lute but made and accepted in Prussia.
corrado26

[Jim McDougall]

Beautifully done Corrado!!! You have done exactly what I was trying to do with letters to East European museums back in 1996, but the results then were pretty dismal. ....here you have shown that the Prussians indeed DID apply the notch.
Those double notches are like others seen, and are definitely NOT damage, they are deliberately placed.
Thank you so much!!!

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Here are the fotos of a Prussian dragoon sword 1732 with a notch at the tip of its blade. Remarkable is the Prussian eagle mark on the blade what proofss that this blade is no Austrian lute but made and accepted in Prussia.
corrado26

Yes well done Corrado26, you have just proved that the notches on blades are not limited to Austro-Hungarian swords but was a practice elsewhere too. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Now we can quote you on that. Interestingly, the notched blade practice seems to have occurred mostly at the beginning of the 18thC.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Here come two fotos of a Prussian husar sabre with a very faint notch at the back of its blade - maybe it is nothing else than a light damage....
corrado26

When I first noticed the 'notches' in the drawings of Austrian swords in the Wagner book, I thought at first the same thing, must be damage.
But then as I looked at the other drawings (about 6 if I recall), they all had the same notch....then in reading the text, I found that Wagner had surmised these 'notches' were for aggravating wounds.

I checked the references for the source weapons Wagner had used, and wrote to the museums noted to acquire actual photos of the subject weapons.
In each case, the photos revealed that the notches were indeed there.

In the case you have posted here, the blade has TWO very shallow notches. These clearly would serve no utility purpose, and why two?
It can be seen they are deliberately placed.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great find!!! This is an extremely hard to find reference (at least it was), but I have seen these plates before. Indeed this is a typology of these arms, but the notches not shown. Remember that it is my impression these were a field addition, not a regulation feature.
The examples depicted in Wagner were certainly anomalies, remember only five of all shown have these, and these were all weapons which had been in service collected in the museums noted. I thought perhaps these might have been artistic license, so I wrote to the museums cited by Wagner as I mentioned earlier. In each case, photographs of the actual weapons depicted in the drawings indeed had the notch! However, none of the officials had given this any notice, and had no idea what these were for.

Nice job in finding this reference!!! I always wanted one of those Austrian disc hilt M1769 since working on a history of the British M1796.

Yes Jim, Dolleczek's book in German was mostly text with some plates with illustrations at the back (also including Austro-Hungarian firearms and equipment). I'm surprised that there is not more literature dedicated to Austro-Hungarian sabres pre-1815, as these are very interesting and varied swords in themselves. I have struggled to find a copy of Hussar Weapons of the 15-17thC (2010) by Tibor S Kovacs which I understand is no longer available even in Budapest. The Austrian M1769 sabre is nice, but I personally wouldn't mind having an Austrian panzerstecher in my collection.

[fernando]

Hi guys,
Was it already mentioned here that this kind of blade notch also appears in French swords, as in a Hussard model 1756 (per Jean Bink), for one... and also in a 1796 British Cavalry sword (per Jeff Demetrick) ... and in a Hussard P1808 (as in Wilkinson - Latham) as well ?.
Looks like this was an 'international' fashion, with ones copying others, regardless of the sword style, whether with one or two notches, with no precise dimensions, surely an intervention of individual iniative. Would it be hard to admit that, as most (all?) current sword enthusiasts keep wondering what these notches were for, also some period owners had these cuts done without knowing their purpose, other than one showing the tough owner's look fashion ... like in other cases that history tells us, you know, notches in revolvers butts ... and not only ?


.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi guys,
Was it already mentioned here that this kind of blade notch also appears in French swords, as in a Hussard model 1756 (per Jean Bink), for one... and also in a 1796 British Cavalry sword (per Jeff Demetrick) ... and in a Hussard P1808 (as in Wilkinson - Latham) as well ?.
Looks like this was an 'international' fashion, with ones copying others, regardless of the sword style, whether with one or two notches, with no precise dimensions, surely an intervention of individual iniative. Would it be hard to admit that, as most (all?) current sword enthusiasts keep wondering what these notches were for, also some period owners had these cuts done without knowing their purpose, other than one showing the tough owner's look fashion ... like in other cases that history tells us, you know, notches in revolvers butts ... and not only ?

Thank you, Fernando. That seems to expand the time period for these sword notches to include all of the 18thC! I saw some hunting knives with notches used for gutting game. I hope the troopers didn't use the notches on their blades to gut their opponents! It appears unlikely, as the grip would have been different and I can only see those notches on modern hunting knives...

But perhaps you are right in that it could have been some kind of show of bravado.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes Jim, Dolleczek's book in German was mostly text with some plates with illustrations at the back (also including Austro-Hungarian firearms and equipment). I'm surprised that there is not more literature dedicated to Austro-Hungarian sabres pre-1815, as these are very interesting and varied swords in themselves. I have struggled to find a copy of Hussar Weapons of the 15-17thC (2010) by Tibor S Kovacs which I understand is no longer available even in Budapest. The Austrian M1769 sabre is nice, but I personally wouldn't mind having an Austrian panzerstecher in my collection.

Austrian M1769 sword, and not sabre, I mean obviously!

[JT88]

Hey guys, sorry to resurrect a long-dead thread, but I have recently acquired a Hungarian "Madonna saber" which from what I can find was made somewhere between 1760-1811. It is a beautiful example as pictured.

There is scarce information on these swords. There are a few similarities as mention above in Wagner which I identified on page 407. I also own "Ungarischer Sabel und Husaren-Pallasch" which solidifies it as a Hungarian saber. Goes on to say that these were almost all foreign-made, mine being a Pottenstein example. I wanted to know what other resources are available for further research on these swords and specifically on Pottenstein as a maker. I've not been able to find anything on Pottenstein specifically and very limited information on Madonna sabers as a whole.

The sword handles beautifully, far more impressive in construction than my 1796. Le Marchant obviously derived his sabers from these.

Its stats are as follows:
Sword in scabbard weight: 3 lb 10.5 oz/1660g
Sword weight: 1 lb 12 oz/ 794g
37 3/4'" long
33" blade
8" POB from the hilt

I only own a 1796LC officers which is obviously a well-constructed light blade, but it seems to be somewhere between that sword and my 1811 Blucher which is a beast.

Thanks for the look!

[Victrix]

This is Pottenstein in lower Austria. See: https://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/o..._1762_1837.xml

[JT88]

Originally Posted by Victrix

This is Pottenstein in lower Austria. See: https://www.biographien.ac.at/oebl/o..._1762_1837.xml

This Pottenstein manufacturer is regarding 19th century, this blade style was only in production until 1811 with many of the others much earlier.

[Jim McDougall]

I am curious about the reference to Wagner.
My copy "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) shows virtually this exact saber among Austrian swords as Hungarian mid 18th c. and with Pottenstein as place of manufacture.
Here I would note that Pottenstein seems to be a judicial district, and electoral region in Bavaria. It is often confusing as swords often, if not typically have the arms of Hungary, but clearly this was Austro-Hungary, the Holy Roman Empire.
While it seems possible there were blade makers at Pottenstein, it seems more likely this was where the saber was 'outfitted'.

It is interesting that this example is silver metal, the book example is brass.

The use of the Madonna falls into place with many of the religious and neo-classic themes popular in Hungary and East European regions.
What is most curious in the Madonna depiction is that the figure is standing on the face of the 'man in the moon' which is a common depiction in the cosmology of many European blades. The image of this moon also shows the line along the back of the head which represents a rostrum, as depicted in the moons used in Spain for espaderos del rey.

In references on Hungarian arms I have read it is noted that there was a predeliction for symbolic representation on arms in this period. In Poland there was a use of representations of important rulers, and those particular swords were termed in accord with the figure on the blade. For example 'zygmuntowka' (King Sigismund); 'batorowka' (King Stephen Bathory).