Austrian hussar sabre for ID

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2017, 12:26 AM

Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature.
Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well.

If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885).

Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me

.

It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

Victrix · 16th April 2017, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature.
Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well.

If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885).

Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me

.

It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

Jim, you are right that the notches also appear on Austro-Hungarian sabres illustrated in Wagner's book, but he only comments on its function in relation to the broad sword which is why I mentioned this particular case. This brings us to the less palatable and romantic aspect of history. I understand that curved sabre blades are designed to deepen cuts, especially from horseback against unarmoured opponents on foot. I understand that sabres, although really single edged swords designed for cutting, often have a "false" edge on the top edge to facilitate thrusting (especially upwards). This would enable the user to make another strike against an opponent without having to first raise his blade again (losing precious time) for another cut. After using his sabre on horseback for a cut, the hussar would simply thrust his sabre into (possibly another) opponent by raising it in which case the "false" edge would be useful. The notch on the "false" edge would have a nasty effect as the sabre was being withdrawn. The risk for snagging is probably reduced by a single notch and the absence of a barb. Apologies for being so graphic. Saw-toothed bayonets were sometimes issued to engineer troops as multi function tools, but they were frowned on in WWI where German troops ran the risk of summary execution if captured using one.

corrado26 · 16th April 2017, 02:58 PM

Honestly, I have never seen an Austrian/Hungarian husar sabre with a notch on the false edge of ist blade. But what I have seen and have posted fotos of are pallasches with these notches. I have no exakt idea what These notches have been for but one told me that they ease collecting things that had fallen down from horseback.
corrado26

Victrix · 16th April 2017, 06:43 PM

Corrado,

Thanks for posting more pictures! The FRINGIA blade is nice. Wagner has a few sabres with notches in his big book. I hope you are right about the purpose for the notch.

Happy Easter to you all.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2017, 10:51 PM

Corrado, as noted Wagner (1967) has at least two sabres shown with these notches, as I explained earlier, and which brought even more thought toward why these would worsen thrust wounds, when a sabre from horseback is a slashing and cutting weapon.

As for utilitarian use, it is a tenuously applied suggestion for picking up things of the ground from horseback (note the direction of the 'hook' in the notch on the first photo) and other ideas as holding a pot handle over a campfire etc.

The idea of these notches being damage caused is patently dismissed by the consistant and deliberate placement at same blade location on the numerous examples. Even Burton (1885) noted an instance of a toothed edge which seemed a singular case, "...it is not easy to explain except by individual freak, the meaning of the toothed or broken edge which appears on a dagger of the 14th c.". This is drawn as a deliberately shaped notch at midpoint on the blade, which defies accidental probability......and more so, the reason why it is there.

This conundrum has defied the many authorities, museum officials, collectors and authors I have consulted over the years, so none of these explanations seem to satisfy any purpose or logic in this feature.
I apologize for any derailment in the thread here, but wanted to bring this mysterious feature to the attention of the clearly very well informed participants in this discussion of the weapons in this context.

Thank you guys for the thoughtful entries and great photos! This strange dilemma has plagued me for many years, so I hope you guys don't get the thing too!

corrado26 · 17th April 2017, 11:33 AM

Two years ago a new book by Jiri Protiva was published under the title "Pallasche der Habsburger Monarchie" (Pallashs of the Habsburg Monarchy). The main part of the book is written in Czech language, but at the ende there is a summery in German language and there you can find on page 164 the sentence you see on the foto attached. In Emglish it reads as follows:
Remarkable too is the barbed hook or notch which we can see at some pallashs from this time at their back site. Its meaning is differently explained, often with the intention to hurt the enemy deeper as normally. The most simple explanation however is, that this notche is a hook, used for collecting fallen down objects without leaving the horseback.

I think, these notches have been in use for both possibilities. Very interesting for me would be to find out who made these notches, were they made in the factory or by the user.
corrado26

corrado26 · 17th April 2017, 11:48 AM

A minute ago a friend told me that such notches are not limited to Austrian swords but can be found at Prussian swords too. He had red in a book (he cannot remember the title) that plundering cavalry troops after a battle rode over the "field of honor" and with the notches in the blades of their swords collected cartouche boxes, bread sacks, knapsacks etc. in order to find eatable things or other lute

corrado26

16th April 2017, 02:58 PM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	Honestly, I have never seen an Austrian/Hungarian husar sabre with a notch on the false edge of ist blade. But what I have seen and have posted fotos of are pallasches with these notches. I have no exakt idea what These notches have been for but one told me that they ease collecting things that had fallen down from horseback. corrado26 Attached Images

16th April 2017, 06:43 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Notch Corrado, Thanks for posting more pictures! The FRINGIA blade is nice. Wagner has a few sabres with notches in his big book. I hope you are right about the purpose for the notch. Happy Easter to you all.

17th April 2017, 11:33 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	Two years ago a new book by Jiri Protiva was published under the title "Pallasche der Habsburger Monarchie" (Pallashs of the Habsburg Monarchy). The main part of the book is written in Czech language, but at the ende there is a summery in German language and there you can find on page 164 the sentence you see on the foto attached. In Emglish it reads as follows: Remarkable too is the barbed hook or notch which we can see at some pallashs from this time at their back site. Its meaning is differently explained, often with the intention to hurt the enemy deeper as normally. The most simple explanation however is, that this notche is a hook, used for collecting fallen down objects without leaving the horseback. I think, these notches have been in use for both possibilities. Very interesting for me would be to find out who made these notches, were they made in the factory or by the user. corrado26 Attached Images

16th April 2017, 12:26 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Wagner indeed mentioned the notion of the notch worsening a wound, which was part of what set me off on a research that lasted years to either confirm or disprove that idea. In a number of cases where museums which held some of the examples Wagner drew from, they concurred with his idea. Others claimed they had no idea, and had in fact taken no notice of this odd feature. Most research with other resources offered absolutely no sound evidence of any thought given to these notches. One thing was certain...they were deliberately placed in that same location on Austrian blades....not only on the pallasches, but on the sabres (as the Pandour officers sabre c. 1750, Hungarian but in Austrian service) as well. If these were to worsen a thrust wound, why then on the back of a sabre blade? While sabres were indeed used in a thrust as by French hussars on occasion.....the dilemma of withdrawing a blade literally snagged in the victim seems a problem. This was the reason the notions of saw blade bayonets in thrusting was an issue, as described by Burton (1885). Actually, Wagner is probably the only person who ever gave these notches a second glance, and enough so he included them in his drawing. There is no mention of notching a blade or its purpose through most narratives and references I have seen. So it remains an unexplained conundrum which seems not to have been effectively noticed by anyone except Wagner..and me . It may seem of little importance, but its the kind of thing that really gets me wondering.

16th April 2017, 10:51 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Corrado, as noted Wagner (1967) has at least two sabres shown with these notches, as I explained earlier, and which brought even more thought toward why these would worsen thrust wounds, when a sabre from horseback is a slashing and cutting weapon. As for utilitarian use, it is a tenuously applied suggestion for picking up things of the ground from horseback (note the direction of the 'hook' in the notch on the first photo) and other ideas as holding a pot handle over a campfire etc. The idea of these notches being damage caused is patently dismissed by the consistant and deliberate placement at same blade location on the numerous examples. Even Burton (1885) noted an instance of a toothed edge which seemed a singular case, "...it is not easy to explain except by individual freak, the meaning of the toothed or broken edge which appears on a dagger of the 14th c.". This is drawn as a deliberately shaped notch at midpoint on the blade, which defies accidental probability......and more so, the reason why it is there. This conundrum has defied the many authorities, museum officials, collectors and authors I have consulted over the years, so none of these explanations seem to satisfy any purpose or logic in this feature. I apologize for any derailment in the thread here, but wanted to bring this mysterious feature to the attention of the clearly very well informed participants in this discussion of the weapons in this context. Thank you guys for the thoughtful entries and great photos! This strange dilemma has plagued me for many years, so I hope you guys don't get the thing too!

17th April 2017, 11:48 AM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,237	A minute ago a friend told me that such notches are not limited to Austrian swords but can be found at Prussian swords too. He had red in a book (he cannot remember the title) that plundering cavalry troops after a battle rode over the "field of honor" and with the notches in the blades of their swords collected cartouche boxes, bread sacks, knapsacks etc. in order to find eatable things or other lute corrado26