A rapier by Pietro Hernandez

ulfberth · 13th April 2017, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Looks like a bull to me...

well maybe not a wolf but it looks like a dog to me

the blade looks indeed German, the position of the stamps on the ricasso and the running K9 all point in that direction

Foxbat · 13th April 2017, 06:00 PM

Well, your picture clearly explains why we have three protrusions where the hind legs are, and only two in the front.

kronckew · 16th April 2017, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Well, your picture clearly explains why we have three protrusions where the hind legs are, and only two in the front.

yup, it's obviously a male animal!

Gonzalo G · 14th May 2017, 06:38 AM

I don´t know if this can be useful, but according with the icollector web site, and I quote: "Excellent quality Victorian decorated rapier with period blade signed Pietro Hernandez. This rapier was probably a military issue and plain style which was embellished in the 19th Century; 47-1/2” overall with a 38” blade; good condition with normal aging. The hilt and blade show quality forging and the decorative chiseling and engraving are almost an exact simulation of 17th Century work but just not quite as fine or detailed enough." You can find the reference here:

It seems that there was made an intent to to imitate a very well known mark or stamp used on Spanish blades from the 15th and 16th Centuries, consisting in a small running dog, made with very elementary lines. For this reason, those swords were commonly called "Espadas del Perrillo" (Swords of the Little Dog). The mark belonged originally to Julián del Rey, known as Julián el Moro, a moorish converse from Granada, supposedly baptized by the king Ferdinand the Catholic. It is to be noted that, according with some people, this swordsmith made the famous jineta sword of Boabdil exhibited in the Museo del Ejército in Toledo, but latter the mark was imitated by other swordsmiths in Spain. Maybe even by those of Passau, and it most be taken care to not confuse the marks, since some people, not knowing this facts, misatribute a Espada del Perrillo to those of the running wolf from Passau. I was unable to load the image of this mark or stamp, since when I try to insert the image in this post, it appear a text "Enter the text to be formatted", and I don´t know how to upload, but you can see the image of the stamp here:

Regards

fernando · 14th May 2017, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... The hilt and blade show quality forging and the decorative chiseling and engraving are almost an exact simulation of 17th Century work but just not quite as fine or detailed enough." You can find the reference here: ... I was unable to load the image of this mark or stamp, since when I try to insert the image in this post, it appear a text "Enter the text to be formatted", and I don´t know how to upload, but you can see the image of the stamp here:...

Hola Gonzalo,
It is visible that you have not been around for some time (years). Let's try and update you.
You should not link to web life auctioners; i did save the sword you wish to show and will upload it here with the appropriate forum attachment pictures.
Concerning the second link in your post, It is not difficult, contrary to what you have experienced, to upload the perrillo mark, as also you should not get it by linking it to ephemeral blogs; also here i will upload this famous symbol with appropriate features. However if you have a quick view to recent threads or browse the forum archives, you will notice that much has been discussed about the perrillo mark; starting by the fact that the very image you have atempted to post is the one figuring in Palomares nomina; a chart often posted in recent (and earlier) discussions. One less dicussed detail but still present in our discussions on this subject is that, while the perrillo would have been a symbol used by Julian del Rey in his blades, such may have been a sort of quality contrast punzon, his personal sword smith mark, one eventually disputed in court by his son and also present and recognized in his blades in museums, is one associated with his name.
Obviously these are all perspectives; always subject to better judgement.

Abrazo

.

Gonzalo G · 14th May 2017, 10:36 PM

You overwhelm me, Fer. I will ask you via private message how to uoload images, since in the past I didn´t have problems to do it. Julián del Rey seems to have used at least three stamps, but I am under the impresion that the perrillo mark, present in the Palomares relation, was not his personal stamp, but I can be wrong. Don´t forget that the relation from Palomares is unaccurate and have some mistakes. The matter must be researched.

Sorry if I repeated statements already clarified in this forum. You are right, I was absent seven years from this and other forums, I am obsolete.

Gonzalo G · 17th May 2017, 12:51 AM

According with the sources, the mark of the perrillo always appear in authentic spanish blades accompanied by other stamps, seemingly personal stamps particular to each swordmaker. Some of those blades are not from Julián del Rey. All indicates that the perrillo mark was a sort of garantee of the quality of the steel of the respective sword, used by Spanish swordsmiths in the 16th Century and it was not the personal stamp from Julián del Rey. Probably the mark of the perrillo was used by the Hipanic-Arab swordsmiths since at least the 15th Century, if not before. Julián del Rey worked at the end of the 15th Century, beginnings of the 16th Century. It is possible that this mark was not invented by him, but taken from a common practice on that time. The scarcity of Hispano-Arabic pieces of quality from the period, makes it difficult to have certainty. Also, it most be considered that the animal was not really a dog, but a different species, though the Spanish people in time, would considere it a perrillo, a small dog, because of its resemblance.
Regards

Iain · 14th April 2017, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

well maybe not a wolf but it looks like a dog to me

the blade looks indeed German, the position of the stamps on the ricasso and the running K9 all point in that direction

Sure, I wasn't disagreeing that it's a German blade, but I think often we are too quick to designate any vaguely four legged depiction of an animal as a running wolf. From memory the unicorn crops up from time to time as well on Passau blades.

fernando · 14th April 2017, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Sure, I wasn't disagreeing that it's a German blade, but I think often we are too quick to designate any vaguely four legged depiction of an animal as a running wolf...

Amen

.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2017, 12:47 AM

The perplexing case of these abstract animals depicted in these blades for yet unknown significance has been a notable feature for as many years as I can recall in my own research, as well as clearly included in the work of many writers.

Ewart Oakeshott in 1960, ("Archaeology of Weapons". N.Y. p.223) notes,
"...a mark which can easily be mistaken for the 'wolf' of Passau is a unicorn; since both wolf and unicorn are only very summarily sketched wth a few inlaid strokes; it needs the eye of faith to distinguish an animal at all; the examples of the unicorn I have met with look exactly the same as the wolves except they have a long straight stroke sticking out in front".

To carry the analogy further, in the well established cases of German trade blades imported into Sudan, Reed ("A Kaskara from Darfur", JAAS, 1985) notes that in examining a blade with a Fur chief, the chief thought the wolf was a hippopotamus!

14th May 2017, 06:38 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I don´t know if this can be useful, but according with the icollector web site, and I quote: "Excellent quality Victorian decorated rapier with period blade signed Pietro Hernandez. This rapier was probably a military issue and plain style which was embellished in the 19th Century; 47-1/2” overall with a 38” blade; good condition with normal aging. The hilt and blade show quality forging and the decorative chiseling and engraving are almost an exact simulation of 17th Century work but just not quite as fine or detailed enough." You can find the reference here: It seems that there was made an intent to to imitate a very well known mark or stamp used on Spanish blades from the 15th and 16th Centuries, consisting in a small running dog, made with very elementary lines. For this reason, those swords were commonly called "Espadas del Perrillo" (Swords of the Little Dog). The mark belonged originally to Julián del Rey, known as Julián el Moro, a moorish converse from Granada, supposedly baptized by the king Ferdinand the Catholic. It is to be noted that, according with some people, this swordsmith made the famous jineta sword of Boabdil exhibited in the Museo del Ejército in Toledo, but latter the mark was imitated by other swordsmiths in Spain. Maybe even by those of Passau, and it most be taken care to not confuse the marks, since some people, not knowing this facts, misatribute a Espada del Perrillo to those of the running wolf from Passau. I was unable to load the image of this mark or stamp, since when I try to insert the image in this post, it appear a text "Enter the text to be formatted", and I don´t know how to upload, but you can see the image of the stamp here: Regards Last edited by fernando; 14th May 2017 at 12:51 PM.

13th April 2017, 06:00 PM	#2
Foxbat Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 69	Well, your picture clearly explains why we have three protrusions where the hind legs are, and only two in the front.

14th May 2017, 10:36 PM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	You overwhelm me, Fer. I will ask you via private message how to uoload images, since in the past I didn´t have problems to do it. Julián del Rey seems to have used at least three stamps, but I am under the impresion that the perrillo mark, present in the Palomares relation, was not his personal stamp, but I can be wrong. Don´t forget that the relation from Palomares is unaccurate and have some mistakes. The matter must be researched. Sorry if I repeated statements already clarified in this forum. You are right, I was absent seven years from this and other forums, I am obsolete.

17th May 2017, 12:51 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	According with the sources, the mark of the perrillo always appear in authentic spanish blades accompanied by other stamps, seemingly personal stamps particular to each swordmaker. Some of those blades are not from Julián del Rey. All indicates that the perrillo mark was a sort of garantee of the quality of the steel of the respective sword, used by Spanish swordsmiths in the 16th Century and it was not the personal stamp from Julián del Rey. Probably the mark of the perrillo was used by the Hipanic-Arab swordsmiths since at least the 15th Century, if not before. Julián del Rey worked at the end of the 15th Century, beginnings of the 16th Century. It is possible that this mark was not invented by him, but taken from a common practice on that time. The scarcity of Hispano-Arabic pieces of quality from the period, makes it difficult to have certainty. Also, it most be considered that the animal was not really a dog, but a different species, though the Spanish people in time, would considere it a perrillo, a small dog, because of its resemblance. Regards

16th April 2017, 12:47 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	The perplexing case of these abstract animals depicted in these blades for yet unknown significance has been a notable feature for as many years as I can recall in my own research, as well as clearly included in the work of many writers. Ewart Oakeshott in 1960, ("Archaeology of Weapons". N.Y. p.223) notes, "...a mark which can easily be mistaken for the 'wolf' of Passau is a unicorn; since both wolf and unicorn are only very summarily sketched wth a few inlaid strokes; it needs the eye of faith to distinguish an animal at all; the examples of the unicorn I have met with look exactly the same as the wolves except they have a long straight stroke sticking out in front". To carry the analogy further, in the well established cases of German trade blades imported into Sudan, Reed ("A Kaskara from Darfur", JAAS, 1985) notes that in examining a blade with a Fur chief, the chief thought the wolf was a hippopotamus!