Ivory sale/import/export and CITES

kai · 10th March 2017, 11:54 PM

Hello Marius,

It needs added emphasis, that it's not the CITES agreements but rather the law and regulations as implemented by member countries (or any federal states) - quite a few of these are much stricter than CITES per se!

For example, you're lucky that the scales are walrus. If they would have been made from african elephant, there was no way to get this piece into the US (except maybe by special permit for scientific reasons if successfully cleared by the authorities). Your chances getting it out of the US would depend on in which state the piece was acquired with states like California, New Jersey, or New York making it very, very tough again...

Here is an old thread with some very basic CITES info. However, the rules are changing all the time and I'm not sure we can keep all needed info current for all legislations...

Regards,
Kai

mariusgmioc · 11th March 2017, 07:44 PM

Thank you!

Very useful!

Jens Nordlunde · 15th March 2017, 11:28 PM

Can anyone with contacts to Sotheby's or Christies please ask how they do it?

silberschatzimsee · 16th March 2017, 02:12 AM

I was at christies 2 weeks ago in London and there they mentioned there is a total embargo to France with ivory items. It must have been a very new rule because they told it before every item containing ivory.

Since I collect ivoryitems I was keen-eared on this topic.

Ps: So the workaround would be to fly to Germany your purchase, drive by car to france and forget things in the glove box or in the backseat.

silberschatzimsee · 16th March 2017, 02:14 AM

Pps: I sadly didn't win my lot and do not live in France so I had no problems when flying back.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th March 2017, 11:03 AM

Thanks for the information.
I would not recomend to send anything with ivory via Germany, as they, for many years, have been very strict. Years ago I heard about a collector who had bought a dagger with an ivory hilt in the US, and had it sent to Germany where he lives. The dagger was confiscated, and he was not even allowed to give it to a museum.

mariusgmioc · 16th March 2017, 04:22 PM

It appears that as time passes by, common sense is gradually and steadilly replaced by idiocy in our society.

At times, I have the feeling that our governments are competing in terms of idiocy, in the sense that as soon as one government passes an idiotic law, there are always following governments striving to pass even more idiotic and non-sensical laws.

@ Jens
You say they didn't even allow him to donate the dagger to a museum... I assume the dagger was destroyed... in the spirit of the new European "civilization" not very much unlike ISIS destroyed the ancient artifacts and monuments that weren't into conformity with their set of rules and beliefs.

10th March 2017, 11:54 PM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Marius, It needs added emphasis, that it's not the CITES agreements but rather the law and regulations as implemented by member countries (or any federal states) - quite a few of these are much stricter than CITES per se! For example, you're lucky that the scales are walrus. If they would have been made from african elephant, there was no way to get this piece into the US (except maybe by special permit for scientific reasons if successfully cleared by the authorities). Your chances getting it out of the US would depend on in which state the piece was acquired with states like California, New Jersey, or New York making it very, very tough again... Here is an old thread with some very basic CITES info. However, the rules are changing all the time and I'm not sure we can keep all needed info current for all legislations... Regards, Kai Last edited by kai; 11th March 2017 at 04:26 AM.

16th March 2017, 04:22 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	It appears that as time passes by, common sense is gradually and steadilly replaced by idiocy in our society. At times, I have the feeling that our governments are competing in terms of idiocy, in the sense that as soon as one government passes an idiotic law, there are always following governments striving to pass even more idiotic and non-sensical laws. @ Jens You say they didn't even allow him to donate the dagger to a museum... I assume the dagger was destroyed... in the spirit of the new European "civilization" not very much unlike ISIS destroyed the ancient artifacts and monuments that weren't into conformity with their set of rules and beliefs. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 16th March 2017 at 05:37 PM.

11th March 2017, 07:44 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	Thank you! Very useful!

15th March 2017, 11:28 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Can anyone with contacts to Sotheby's or Christies please ask how they do it?

16th March 2017, 02:12 AM	#4
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	I was at christies 2 weeks ago in London and there they mentioned there is a total embargo to France with ivory items. It must have been a very new rule because they told it before every item containing ivory. Since I collect ivoryitems I was keen-eared on this topic. Ps: So the workaround would be to fly to Germany your purchase, drive by car to france and forget things in the glove box or in the backseat.

16th March 2017, 02:14 AM	#5
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	Pps: I sadly didn't win my lot and do not live in France so I had no problems when flying back.

16th March 2017, 11:03 AM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thanks for the information. I would not recomend to send anything with ivory via Germany, as they, for many years, have been very strict. Years ago I heard about a collector who had bought a dagger with an ivory hilt in the US, and had it sent to Germany where he lives. The dagger was confiscated, and he was not even allowed to give it to a museum.