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5th March 2017, 12:12 PM
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#1 | |
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Quote:
thanks! Now it is clear to me why the first rapier is attributed to Alonso Perez while there is only ALONSO EN TOLEDO as inscription on the blade (no PEREZ) the one you posted has the same OS mark but as inscription the full name OF Alonso Perez; A.L.O.N.S.O. P.E. on one side R.E.Z. E.N. T.O.L.E.D.O at the other side. The style of horsemen on V&A rapier came 60 year later on equestrian small swords of around 1650. they have a similar chiseled style with horsemen cut in high relief and were used extensively in the Netherlands. however, it is not known where this type was made, perhaps by the medal cutters in Paris because of the very high and detailed quality work or maybe in liege. attached an equestrian hilted small sword from my collection best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 5th March 2017 at 12:31 PM. |
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5th March 2017, 04:21 PM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,459
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So why OS?
And why is the TO seemingly reversed (if it is to mean Toledo)? on the so called Toledo export mark as shown in Marek. |
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5th March 2017, 05:30 PM
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#3 | |
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I do not understand the question, can you explain it please? Is The question why Alonso Perez used OS ? best, Jasper |
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5th March 2017, 06:01 PM
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#4 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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5th March 2017, 08:45 PM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Yes Fernando, you did answer me exactly, and we being of the same pharaonic age group and of the same visional subjectivity, you hit exactly what I was trying to ask. Jasper, I thank you very much for your patience and am grateful for your input here as we try to sort out the enigmas of these swords and their markings.
Fernando, it is most interesting about Valle's theorizing about the 'Toledo' mark with its curious letter positioning in the shield, and uses knowledgeable , though tenuous theorizing about what such placements of letters might signify. It would be naïve to discount the number of potential answers there might be, and which may involve unusual explanations. We must remember that there was nowhere in Europe more involved in religious contrasts, mysticism, magic and occult and military brotherhoods and orders than Spain and Portugal. While there are no records specifying Jewish armourers and swordsmiths, we know they existed of course. The use of Cabbalistic symbolism and sigils which were it seems often used in talismanic contexts along with other symbols and motif. With illiteracy prevalent, as noted even with many of the famed masters, the use of symbols, sigils and allegorical signs were often key in conveying the imbuement of quality and talismanic virtue in blades. With the many forms of codification and secret symbols held so profoundly by Spaniards and Portuguese in so many instances, it would be extremely difficult to define any meanings in these punzones and markings accurately. Even the Spanish system of swordsmanship, destreza , was an occult and scientific mystery, with complex numerical and geometric features. Is it possible aspects of this, along with the many other types of symbolism, may carry the mysteries even further? As noted, the letter 'S' seems well represented in at least 7 examples, with 4 of them being Sahagun. The placement of a dot or a line may explain which specific maker the punzon might represent, but others are simply the letter S. Perhaps subtle differences in the crown may be the key? The idea of the placement of the letters as signifying the initial of the maker, his place of origin also seems questionable. I recall one writer once suggested the repeated use of the letter 'P' in a number of punzones possibly because so many makers were named Pedro! Another conundrum is with the number '3', which occurs in a number of them. I have seen no adequate explanation for this one. While these dilemmas seem almost impossible to resolve, with lack of accurate records, the purloining and spurious use of marks in Spain as well of course in the busy centers of Germany and Italy.....we have come a long way here thanks to you guys and the great insight and information you share. |
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6th March 2017, 09:09 AM
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#6 |
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Member
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Posts: 1,060
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as known, some German blacksmiths from solingen used hispanicized marks.
For example, Clemens Stamm used the toldedo mark and an IS crowned together with the crescent. see nr 45,107 There is even a rapier described with a Spanish inscription CLEMENS.STAM.ESPADERO.DEI.REY. ( A. Weyersberg solinger schwertschmeide p.44) Clemens Tesche used crowned S, Peter Tesche a crowned B and Toledo mark, the crowned OT. etc. see nr111,112 It seems that for geographical determination, a mark in itself has subordinate value and should always be considered in conjunction with the inscribed name of the blacksmith. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 6th March 2017 at 11:02 AM. |
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6th March 2017, 04:26 PM
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#7 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Actually the inverted stiuation, as you know, is also not reliable. Often we see blade smiths name inscriptions, some times even 'supported' by the To symbol, that are a fake; Ayala, Sahagun and other. . Last edited by fernando; 7th March 2017 at 11:42 AM. |
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6th March 2017, 04:15 PM
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#8 | |||
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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... Besides Moors, Jews were also experts in metalic arts in general and in the production of weapons in particular, reason why an exception was promulgated in their favour. According to Damião de Gois, in part I, chapter X, of his Chronicle of (King) Dom Manuel, the Jews of Castille, who came to Portugal in the time of (King) Dom João II, paid 8 cruzados per capita and the black smiths, tinkers, mail smiths and armourers (only) paid half. The influence of these imigrants could obviously not be long lasting, as they had to be expatriated in the realm of Dom Manuel. However many Jews, converted to Catholicism, continued exercizing their activities, so that we see in (city of) Tavira, Algarve, a family of New Christians (converted Jews), that of the Fains, dedicated to the production of lances. Quote:
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 . Last edited by fernando; 7th March 2017 at 11:41 AM. |
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5th March 2017, 05:09 PM
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#9 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Jim, i am glad that you stood with me in the Alonso Perez mark enigma, as to comfort me for not having visions, something potential with my pharaonic age.
As for the Toledo punzon, Jose Maria Pelaez Valle questions himself on this issue and takes a guess that the different positions ot the two initials and their shield could indicate the different period (year) in which the blades were produced, like in silver hallmarks of certain countries; as also that the non applying of such TO mark in blades could mean that some masters were so reknown out there that they would see no need for such quality contrast. It is a fact that, the abundance of the letter S on smith's marks which names appear not to contain such letter, needs some enlightenment; other than the fact that period Latin phonems could cause erroneous situations, besides cultural perceptions. Remember the great master Tomas de Ayala was illiterate. On the other hand and subject to double check, marks being usually correspondent to the initial of the first or family name, were not necessarily so; allegory to the smiths place of origin (toponimic) could also be taken into account. It seems as the S for the Sahagun family was so attributed because they actually were from Sahagun. |
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5th March 2017, 05:43 PM
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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 .I tell you what; next time you come over to the peninsula for kite surfing you bring this one with you for, say, your self defence ... and tell me which hotel you will stay at .
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