A Scottish basket hilt for comment.

Battara · 20th February 2017, 04:18 AM

Could this have been a regiment belonging to the Black Watch? Later Scottish regimental basket hilts would have had a conical top (i.e. the American Revolution). This looks older, and might be English, but I am at this second leaning toward Scottish.

I also agree with the paint being later. Perhaps used as a form of preservation.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2017, 05:38 AM

I would say likely Scottish hilt but probably from English garrison armouries there in first half 18th c. (good to see remains of wire wrap still present on the tang). The 'Black Watch' was 6 companies of Scots (clans Campbell, Fraser, Munro and Grant) formed post '15 rebellion to patrol the Highlands ('watch', the term black or dubh meant dark or covert). This was about 1740. The bun type pommel suggests about that time as does the hilt.
The traditional pierced saltires with these shapes also indicate it is Scottish, the English made hilts were plain bars and plates.

Not sure on the numbers on pommel but seem most likely to be rack number or other than regimental .

The conical pommel hilts (usually by Drury or Jeffries) were produced in Birmingham around 1760s and indeed were known used by Black Watch, the 42nd Highlanders.

Will M · 20th February 2017, 04:23 PM

Post # 130 has a similarly marked pommel and sword blade, hilt different.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...718#post182718

Cerjak · 20th February 2017, 04:48 PM

Thank you Will , as Jim has wrote it this numbers on pommel seem most likely to be a rack number .
best
Cerjak

Will M · 20th February 2017, 11:56 PM

I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French.
Might have some bearing on where you found it.

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2017, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French.
Might have some bearing on where you found it.

Very well noted Will....there were considerable numbers of Jacobites there, and need to get to my Scottish stuff to find more. There is simply nothing quite like these basket hilts!!! but then, I am a wee bit biased

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2017, 01:33 AM

Will thank you for the link to the 2015 discussion . I noted the pommel and the ring below in this very English basket hilt, and the 60 on the pommel, which seems remarkably close to the 59 on this one. Perhaps in the same unit lineup?
Most interesting on this 'English' hilt is the very Scottish wristguard quillon, a feature from c. 1690s into 1700s, to guard against the much favored Scot wrist cut.
Also interesting are these punched linear dots which I did not notice in that discussion....paternoster? Not applicable here necessarily but I would think of that (if indeed the case) would suggest Jacobite association, but on an English hilt?
It is hard to follow the complications within the '45, where allegiances often transcended nationality, English were sometimes with the Scots and vice versa.

This may prove a most intriguing basket hilt.

Cerjak · 21st February 2017, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will M

I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French.
Might have some bearing on where you found it.

Hi Will ,
This sword come from UK.
best

Cerjak

NeilUK · 21st February 2017, 12:56 PM

Hi Cerjak,
That is an interesting sword you have there. The large ball pommel suggests that it is early, but the overall form of the basket is well developed. The heart-shaped piercings in the knuckle-guard and the sheelds (the contemporary term for the square panels) do not necessarily make the sword Scottish, but the lack of a wrist-guard does not necessarily make it English. The basket is very plain - no decorative motifs or edging to the panels or inlay, so fairly cheaply made. On balance I would say it is Scottish, first half of the 18th century, and made for regimental use or later conscripted into the army, hence the rack number. Hope my 2 cents worth helps.
Best wishes, Neil

21st February 2017, 01:33 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Will thank you for the link to the 2015 discussion . I noted the pommel and the ring below in this very English basket hilt, and the 60 on the pommel, which seems remarkably close to the 59 on this one. Perhaps in the same unit lineup? Most interesting on this 'English' hilt is the very Scottish wristguard quillon, a feature from c. 1690s into 1700s, to guard against the much favored Scot wrist cut. Also interesting are these punched linear dots which I did not notice in that discussion....paternoster? Not applicable here necessarily but I would think of that (if indeed the case) would suggest Jacobite association, but on an English hilt? It is hard to follow the complications within the '45, where allegiances often transcended nationality, English were sometimes with the Scots and vice versa. This may prove a most intriguing basket hilt. Attached Images

20th February 2017, 04:18 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Could this have been a regiment belonging to the Black Watch? Later Scottish regimental basket hilts would have had a conical top (i.e. the American Revolution). This looks older, and might be English, but I am at this second leaning toward Scottish. I also agree with the paint being later. Perhaps used as a form of preservation.

20th February 2017, 05:38 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	I would say likely Scottish hilt but probably from English garrison armouries there in first half 18th c. (good to see remains of wire wrap still present on the tang). The 'Black Watch' was 6 companies of Scots (clans Campbell, Fraser, Munro and Grant) formed post '15 rebellion to patrol the Highlands ('watch', the term black or dubh meant dark or covert). This was about 1740. The bun type pommel suggests about that time as does the hilt. The traditional pierced saltires with these shapes also indicate it is Scottish, the English made hilts were plain bars and plates. Not sure on the numbers on pommel but seem most likely to be rack number or other than regimental . The conical pommel hilts (usually by Drury or Jeffries) were produced in Birmingham around 1760s and indeed were known used by Black Watch, the 42nd Highlanders.

20th February 2017, 04:23 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Post # 130 has a similarly marked pommel and sword blade, hilt different. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...718#post182718

20th February 2017, 04:48 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you Will , as Jim has wrote it this numbers on pommel seem most likely to be a rack number . best Cerjak

20th February 2017, 11:56 PM	#5
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	I noticed you're in France, there were some basket hilts used by the French. Might have some bearing on where you found it.

21st February 2017, 12:56 PM	#9
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	Hi Cerjak, That is an interesting sword you have there. The large ball pommel suggests that it is early, but the overall form of the basket is well developed. The heart-shaped piercings in the knuckle-guard and the sheelds (the contemporary term for the square panels) do not necessarily make the sword Scottish, but the lack of a wrist-guard does not necessarily make it English. The basket is very plain - no decorative motifs or edging to the panels or inlay, so fairly cheaply made. On balance I would say it is Scottish, first half of the 18th century, and made for regimental use or later conscripted into the army, hence the rack number. Hope my 2 cents worth helps. Best wishes, Neil