A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century

Cerjak · 13th February 2017, 05:05 PM

Thank you Jasper,
I particularly appreciate your knowledge of the masters of painting in the sixteenth century. Their faithful representation in art of sword fashion is certainly the most reliable dating method.
Again a sword who could be from your country...
best

Jean-Luc

fernando · 13th February 2017, 05:16 PM

That's what we call expertise.

.

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2017, 06:46 PM

Totally with Fernando re: Jasper........expertise is the word!!!
I am intrigued by the unusual motif in this rapier hilt, and tried to find something comparable but my resources seem disturbingly limited and nothing close.

I am curious on the inscription in the blade, and it seems the Francisco Ruiz name was not only well established, but so much so that like Tomas Ayala, it was often used spuriously on German blades. Perhaps that has also lent to the use of this renowned name on a number of more modern productions.

What seems notable is the uneven character of the letters in the inscription and the curious use of the letter Z in Francisco, which seems atypical.
As Fernando notes, it would seem that in an early blade, by either Francisco Ruiz the elder, or the younger for that matter, would have the appropriate punzone at the forte.
What is there instead, is a crescent, of a form more in character with such stamps in pommel or hilt elements, but I presume this is to allude to the use of the crescent by Spanish makers Del Rey.

It would not seem unusual to find a Spanish blade in the Netherlands and in a German style hilt as this was of course a Spanish province from the late 16th into 18th c. Going back to the inscription, I have been under the impression that in Solingen stamped lettering was 'racked', thus in groups so as to ensure more evenly and uniform lettering. That is why this one seems so unusual and unevenly applied. If this sword was a German product of 17th century, it seems the inscription and a punzone (even if not correct as was the case with the Stantlers in Munich in their use) .

cornelistromp · 14th February 2017, 09:26 AM

thanks for the compliments but I must disappoint you, I am for the time being still a student in arms.

The hilt is a combination of norman type 74 and 77.
The globular pommel characterizes Dutch rapiers.
The grid pattern was found on several arms and armour around 1570-1580, see for example the pommels and round finals of different dussages.

best,
jasper

fernando · 14th February 2017, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

thanks for the compliments but I must disappoint you, I am for the time being still a student in arms...

Experts are like physicians; always studying new discoveries

.

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2017, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Experts are like physicians; always studying new discoveries

.

Very well put Fernando!
Jasper, my opinion stands, and thank you for the insight into this pattern.
Grid is exactly the term I was looking for and I see what you mean on its occurrence on dusagges and now recall seeing that.

Philip · 15th February 2017, 07:55 AM

Globular or spherical pommels per se weren't restricted to the Netherlands. Note a north Italian example, inv. no. 1776, Museo Poldi Pezzoli (Milano), publ. Boccia/Coelho 1975, #485. The swept hilt is cataloged as 1580-90, from Belluno; earlier riding-swords and backswords from this area which are practically identical to Styrian counterparts also share this feature (Coll. Luigi Marzoli, Brescia, inv. no. G 21 and G 23). A faceted version of the sphere can be seen on a somewhat simpler swept hilt on a rapier identified by Capwell as possibly Italian, 1570-80, Wallace Collection inv. no. A576, publ. Norman 1986, p 134.

Grid filework is also seen on a few Italian rapier hilts, q.v. inv. no. 2575, Museo Poldi Pezzoli, with an example depicted in art, "Portrait of a Gentleman" by Bartolomeo Passarotti 1571, Museo Bardini (Firenze), both publ Boccia/Coelho 1975, # 465, 466-67. It must be said, however, that these Italian examples are a bit more elegantly proportioned than the hilt on the sword discussed here.

15th February 2017, 07:55 AM	#7
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Spherical pommels / grid filework Globular or spherical pommels per se weren't restricted to the Netherlands. Note a north Italian example, inv. no. 1776, Museo Poldi Pezzoli (Milano), publ. Boccia/Coelho 1975, #485. The swept hilt is cataloged as 1580-90, from Belluno; earlier riding-swords and backswords from this area which are practically identical to Styrian counterparts also share this feature (Coll. Luigi Marzoli, Brescia, inv. no. G 21 and G 23). A faceted version of the sphere can be seen on a somewhat simpler swept hilt on a rapier identified by Capwell as possibly Italian, 1570-80, Wallace Collection inv. no. A576, publ. Norman 1986, p 134. Grid filework is also seen on a few Italian rapier hilts, q.v. inv. no. 2575, Museo Poldi Pezzoli, with an example depicted in art, "Portrait of a Gentleman" by Bartolomeo Passarotti 1571, Museo Bardini (Firenze), both publ Boccia/Coelho 1975, # 465, 466-67. It must be said, however, that these Italian examples are a bit more elegantly proportioned than the hilt on the sword discussed here.

13th February 2017, 05:05 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you Jasper, I particularly appreciate your knowledge of the masters of painting in the sixteenth century. Their faithful representation in art of sword fashion is certainly the most reliable dating method. Again a sword who could be from your country... best Jean-Luc

13th February 2017, 05:16 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That's what we call expertise. .

13th February 2017, 06:46 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Totally with Fernando re: Jasper........expertise is the word!!! I am intrigued by the unusual motif in this rapier hilt, and tried to find something comparable but my resources seem disturbingly limited and nothing close. I am curious on the inscription in the blade, and it seems the Francisco Ruiz name was not only well established, but so much so that like Tomas Ayala, it was often used spuriously on German blades. Perhaps that has also lent to the use of this renowned name on a number of more modern productions. What seems notable is the uneven character of the letters in the inscription and the curious use of the letter Z in Francisco, which seems atypical. As Fernando notes, it would seem that in an early blade, by either Francisco Ruiz the elder, or the younger for that matter, would have the appropriate punzone at the forte. What is there instead, is a crescent, of a form more in character with such stamps in pommel or hilt elements, but I presume this is to allude to the use of the crescent by Spanish makers Del Rey. It would not seem unusual to find a Spanish blade in the Netherlands and in a German style hilt as this was of course a Spanish province from the late 16th into 18th c. Going back to the inscription, I have been under the impression that in Solingen stamped lettering was 'racked', thus in groups so as to ensure more evenly and uniform lettering. That is why this one seems so unusual and unevenly applied. If this sword was a German product of 17th century, it seems the inscription and a punzone (even if not correct as was the case with the Stantlers in Munich in their use) .

14th February 2017, 09:26 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	thanks for the compliments but I must disappoint you, I am for the time being still a student in arms. The hilt is a combination of norman type 74 and 77. The globular pommel characterizes Dutch rapiers. The grid pattern was found on several arms and armour around 1570-1580, see for example the pommels and round finals of different dussages. best, jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 14th February 2017 at 11:32 AM.