A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century

fernando · 13th February 2017, 11:34 AM

Very nice rapier, Jean-Luc.
I wonder why there are no blade marks pertaining to the smith Master, of either one or the other of the two brothers with the same name.
Did you check that ?
Also the spelling of the name is worthy of note.
In one example shown at the Ministery of Culture, we can read:
En el primer cuarto de la hoja, Grabado
´DE FRANCISCO´
En el primer cuarto de la hoja, Grabado
´RVIS EN TOLEDO´
Datación 1601=1700

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cornelistromp · 13th February 2017, 01:24 PM

A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century ?

No, I think it's a German or Dutch rapier from the last quarter of the 16th century, globular pommels are very simple in form but very rare , pommels of this type occurred in Netherlands on some 16thC paintings.
fe in a paining The Company of Captain Rosecrans by Cornelis Ketel, 1588
best,
Jasper

Cerjak · 13th February 2017, 05:05 PM

Thank you Jasper,
I particularly appreciate your knowledge of the masters of painting in the sixteenth century. Their faithful representation in art of sword fashion is certainly the most reliable dating method.
Again a sword who could be from your country...
best

Jean-Luc

fernando · 13th February 2017, 05:16 PM

That's what we call expertise.

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Jim McDougall · 13th February 2017, 06:46 PM

Totally with Fernando re: Jasper........expertise is the word!!!
I am intrigued by the unusual motif in this rapier hilt, and tried to find something comparable but my resources seem disturbingly limited and nothing close.

I am curious on the inscription in the blade, and it seems the Francisco Ruiz name was not only well established, but so much so that like Tomas Ayala, it was often used spuriously on German blades. Perhaps that has also lent to the use of this renowned name on a number of more modern productions.

What seems notable is the uneven character of the letters in the inscription and the curious use of the letter Z in Francisco, which seems atypical.
As Fernando notes, it would seem that in an early blade, by either Francisco Ruiz the elder, or the younger for that matter, would have the appropriate punzone at the forte.
What is there instead, is a crescent, of a form more in character with such stamps in pommel or hilt elements, but I presume this is to allude to the use of the crescent by Spanish makers Del Rey.

It would not seem unusual to find a Spanish blade in the Netherlands and in a German style hilt as this was of course a Spanish province from the late 16th into 18th c. Going back to the inscription, I have been under the impression that in Solingen stamped lettering was 'racked', thus in groups so as to ensure more evenly and uniform lettering. That is why this one seems so unusual and unevenly applied. If this sword was a German product of 17th century, it seems the inscription and a punzone (even if not correct as was the case with the Stantlers in Munich in their use) .

cornelistromp · 14th February 2017, 09:26 AM

thanks for the compliments but I must disappoint you, I am for the time being still a student in arms.

The hilt is a combination of norman type 74 and 77.
The globular pommel characterizes Dutch rapiers.
The grid pattern was found on several arms and armour around 1570-1580, see for example the pommels and round finals of different dussages.

best,
jasper

fernando · 14th February 2017, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

thanks for the compliments but I must disappoint you, I am for the time being still a student in arms...

Experts are like physicians; always studying new discoveries

.

13th February 2017, 11:34 AM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very nice rapier, Jean-Luc. I wonder why there are no blade marks pertaining to the smith Master, of either one or the other of the two brothers with the same name. Did you check that ? Also the spelling of the name is worthy of note. In one example shown at the Ministery of Culture, we can read: En el primer cuarto de la hoja, Grabado ´DE FRANCISCO´ En el primer cuarto de la hoja, Grabado ´RVIS EN TOLEDO´ Datación 1601=1700 . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 13th February 2017 at 11:52 AM.

13th February 2017, 01:24 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	A Spanish rapier Early 17TH century ? No, I think it's a German or Dutch rapier from the last quarter of the 16th century, globular pommels are very simple in form but very rare , pommels of this type occurred in Netherlands on some 16thC paintings. fe in a paining The Company of Captain Rosecrans by Cornelis Ketel, 1588 best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 13th February 2017 at 01:39 PM.

14th February 2017, 09:26 AM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	thanks for the compliments but I must disappoint you, I am for the time being still a student in arms. The hilt is a combination of norman type 74 and 77. The globular pommel characterizes Dutch rapiers. The grid pattern was found on several arms and armour around 1570-1580, see for example the pommels and round finals of different dussages. best, jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 14th February 2017 at 11:32 AM.

13th February 2017, 05:05 PM	#3
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you Jasper, I particularly appreciate your knowledge of the masters of painting in the sixteenth century. Their faithful representation in art of sword fashion is certainly the most reliable dating method. Again a sword who could be from your country... best Jean-Luc

13th February 2017, 05:16 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That's what we call expertise. .

13th February 2017, 06:46 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Totally with Fernando re: Jasper........expertise is the word!!! I am intrigued by the unusual motif in this rapier hilt, and tried to find something comparable but my resources seem disturbingly limited and nothing close. I am curious on the inscription in the blade, and it seems the Francisco Ruiz name was not only well established, but so much so that like Tomas Ayala, it was often used spuriously on German blades. Perhaps that has also lent to the use of this renowned name on a number of more modern productions. What seems notable is the uneven character of the letters in the inscription and the curious use of the letter Z in Francisco, which seems atypical. As Fernando notes, it would seem that in an early blade, by either Francisco Ruiz the elder, or the younger for that matter, would have the appropriate punzone at the forte. What is there instead, is a crescent, of a form more in character with such stamps in pommel or hilt elements, but I presume this is to allude to the use of the crescent by Spanish makers Del Rey. It would not seem unusual to find a Spanish blade in the Netherlands and in a German style hilt as this was of course a Spanish province from the late 16th into 18th c. Going back to the inscription, I have been under the impression that in Solingen stamped lettering was 'racked', thus in groups so as to ensure more evenly and uniform lettering. That is why this one seems so unusual and unevenly applied. If this sword was a German product of 17th century, it seems the inscription and a punzone (even if not correct as was the case with the Stantlers in Munich in their use) .