What kind of sword is this?

Mercenary · 11th February 2017, 07:16 PM

I agree it is dha. However we know a lot of 19-20th swords "dha" and they are far different from the subject. Where are there such "dha" the same as on the picture?

ArmsAndAntiques · 11th February 2017, 07:28 PM

The type of sword in the image reminds me of some swords in images posted on the forum some years ago from a European collection, which I won't try to pretend that I remember the name of.

However I repost those images here, which show dha and Japanese influenced swords likely made for high ranking members of a European court, or fops such as that in the image. So, it stands to reason that dhas did end up in Europe and both could have been worn and influence European sword design, though one would expect the decoration on the example in the painting to be more European influenced such as those examples in the images I post (though they seem to be composites of Asian origin blades and some fittings and mainly European fittings).

What is the origin of the painting? Polish?

Regards
LL

ArmsAndAntiques · 11th February 2017, 07:51 PM

Some more images. I believe this Dresden...

The sword of Thomas Kapustran, Klauzenburg / Siebenbiurgen (Romania), 1674
Blade and scabbard, Japanese

Also to stress that these are not mine, but a forum member who posted these some years ago, here is the link as well:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=662

best
LL

ariel · 12th February 2017, 04:40 AM

Rembrandt ( 1606-1669) in his picture " Blinding of Samson" used Ceylonese spear and Balinese kris.
Dutchmen traveled far and wide and early on, and brought back a lot of exotic souvenirs.

Tim Simmons · 12th February 2017, 08:30 AM

Here

Mercenary · 12th February 2017, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmsAndAntiques

What is the origin of the painting? Polish?
LL

Dutch

Quote:

Dutchmen traveled far and wide and early on, and brought back a lot of exotic souvenirs.

Many thanks. I think the same. Many thanks. I think the same. Now the question the real SEA dha it is or some European stylized sword as mention above.

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2017, 06:09 PM

You guys are amazing!! How you always find perfect illustrations and pertinent posts is outstanding to carry the discussion
I'm glad you agree Mercenary that this is a Dutch painting. While I'm no art expert, it certainly has the 'feel' of Dutch masters .
As I mentioned earlier, Rembrandt had a nominal collection of exotic weaponry from Indonesian and Asian areas which had been brought back by Dutch VOC ships.
It would seem that his inclusion of these unusual weapons were placed in his works for 'effect', and it seems that other artists followed suit.

The interaction between Europe and these exotic ports of call with various material culture and of course weaponry is well established. As seen, there were European versions of various forms from China and other Asian locations in style and decoration. The decoration known as Tonquinese was used through the 18th century on court and smallswords. In many cases Chinese and other artisans were brought into European shops to work on many of the 'exotic' forms.

In the case of this dha, obviously we are looking at an artists conception of the sword, however in my opinion, this looks fully like an original item from Thailand (then Siam) as it carries the distinctive features usually seen on them. The only thing that would suggest it being a European example would be its size, dha usually smaller (but I have seen them this large).
Artists were usually quite accurate in their depictions of detail used in their work, however sometimes various prop or accent items may be out of context as seen in Rembrandt's Biblical works.

ArmsAndAntiques · 12th February 2017, 06:19 PM

Does anyone know this actual painting?
Where it is located?
When it was painted?
By whom?

That would assist in settling some of the questions floating around.

Best
LL

Mercenary · 12th February 2017, 06:47 PM

Ferdinand Bol. Portrait of a young man with a sword, 1635-40, Dayton Art Institute, Ohio

Quote:

Ferdinand Bol may have been a pupil in Dordrecht of Jacob Gerritsz. Cuyp. He is recorded still in Dordrecht in 1635. He moved to Amsterdam in the late 1630's where be became a pupil of Rembrandt. About 1642 be established himself as an independent artist and remained in Amsterdam until the end of his lift. He was one of Rernbrandt's ablest pupils and also a great favorite with the master.His earliest works are close in style to Rembrandt's but front about 1650 be turned more to the example of Bartholomeus van der HeIst in portraiture although his subject pictures remain indebted to Rembrandt. He was successful in Amsterdam as a portraitist throughout his life.

ArmsAndAntiques · 12th February 2017, 07:02 PM

Excellent information.

On the other painting posted, the sword wrap and style is very close to an example in the Smithsonian Institution, that was discussed here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4768

Ian · 12th February 2017, 07:24 PM

I have been watching this thread for the last day and doing some online research, most notably in relation to the events in Siam during the early 17th C. For various reasons, I doubt that this sword is a dha/daab (more on that when I get back home in a couple of days--traveling at the moment), but it might be. More likely, IMO, is that it comes from the area that is now northern Vietnam, i.e., Cochin China. There are some features to the hilt and scabbard that suggest SE Asia, but also several anomalies.

I would also raise some questions about the authenticity of this picture as a work of Bol. Bol's paintings were often mistaken for works by Rembrandt, his master, in the 18th C, and I don't find the portrait shown here to be something that might be confused easily for a Rembrandt. In looking online at Bol's accredited works (which are said to be "rare"), this portrait does not appear. Also, the Dayton Museum of Art is not a prime location where one would expect such a work to show up. The attribution to Bol is important in dating the portrait, and that dating is key to where to look for the possible origin of this sword.

More research is needed and I will come back to this thread when I have time.

Ian

11th February 2017, 07:28 PM	#2
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	The type of sword in the image reminds me of some swords in images posted on the forum some years ago from a European collection, which I won't try to pretend that I remember the name of. However I repost those images here, which show dha and Japanese influenced swords likely made for high ranking members of a European court, or fops such as that in the image. So, it stands to reason that dhas did end up in Europe and both could have been worn and influence European sword design, though one would expect the decoration on the example in the painting to be more European influenced such as those examples in the images I post (though they seem to be composites of Asian origin blades and some fittings and mainly European fittings). What is the origin of the painting? Polish? Regards LL Attached Images

11th February 2017, 07:51 PM	#3
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	Some more images. I believe this Dresden... The sword of Thomas Kapustran, Klauzenburg / Siebenbiurgen (Romania), 1674 Blade and scabbard, Japanese Also to stress that these are not mine, but a forum member who posted these some years ago, here is the link as well: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=662 best LL Attached Images

12th February 2017, 04:40 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Rembrandt ( 1606-1669) in his picture " Blinding of Samson" used Ceylonese spear and Balinese kris. Dutchmen traveled far and wide and early on, and brought back a lot of exotic souvenirs. Attached Images

12th February 2017, 08:30 AM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Here Attached Images

11th February 2017, 07:16 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	I agree it is dha. However we know a lot of 19-20th swords "dha" and they are far different from the subject. Where are there such "dha" the same as on the picture?

12th February 2017, 06:09 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	You guys are amazing!! How you always find perfect illustrations and pertinent posts is outstanding to carry the discussion I'm glad you agree Mercenary that this is a Dutch painting. While I'm no art expert, it certainly has the 'feel' of Dutch masters . As I mentioned earlier, Rembrandt had a nominal collection of exotic weaponry from Indonesian and Asian areas which had been brought back by Dutch VOC ships. It would seem that his inclusion of these unusual weapons were placed in his works for 'effect', and it seems that other artists followed suit. The interaction between Europe and these exotic ports of call with various material culture and of course weaponry is well established. As seen, there were European versions of various forms from China and other Asian locations in style and decoration. The decoration known as Tonquinese was used through the 18th century on court and smallswords. In many cases Chinese and other artisans were brought into European shops to work on many of the 'exotic' forms. In the case of this dha, obviously we are looking at an artists conception of the sword, however in my opinion, this looks fully like an original item from Thailand (then Siam) as it carries the distinctive features usually seen on them. The only thing that would suggest it being a European example would be its size, dha usually smaller (but I have seen them this large). Artists were usually quite accurate in their depictions of detail used in their work, however sometimes various prop or accent items may be out of context as seen in Rembrandt's Biblical works.

12th February 2017, 06:19 PM	#8
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	Does anyone know this actual painting? Where it is located? When it was painted? By whom? That would assist in settling some of the questions floating around. Best LL

12th February 2017, 07:02 PM	#10
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	Excellent information. On the other painting posted, the sword wrap and style is very close to an example in the Smithsonian Institution, that was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4768

12th February 2017, 07:24 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	I have been watching this thread for the last day and doing some online research, most notably in relation to the events in Siam during the early 17th C. For various reasons, I doubt that this sword is a dha/daab (more on that when I get back home in a couple of days--traveling at the moment), but it might be. More likely, IMO, is that it comes from the area that is now northern Vietnam, i.e., Cochin China. There are some features to the hilt and scabbard that suggest SE Asia, but also several anomalies. I would also raise some questions about the authenticity of this picture as a work of Bol. Bol's paintings were often mistaken for works by Rembrandt, his master, in the 18th C, and I don't find the portrait shown here to be something that might be confused easily for a Rembrandt. In looking online at Bol's accredited works (which are said to be "rare"), this portrait does not appear. Also, the Dayton Museum of Art is not a prime location where one would expect such a work to show up. The attribution to Bol is important in dating the portrait, and that dating is key to where to look for the possible origin of this sword. More research is needed and I will come back to this thread when I have time. Ian